Hype clear (perma wash) before developer…

[Jhw145]

Hi all - newbie to the forum but not a newbie to analog film. I work at a school and we did a class shoot today - 4x5. Just to rule out user error I thought I’d ask here about a chemical mix up. Unfortunately, my beakers were mislabeled and I used permawash (Heico) for a 4x5 prewash instead of water. The film came out blank, not even a ghost of an image. I don’t think permawash would mess up development to that degree? We use x-tol, straight. The SDS for Heico permawash says “trade secret” - but it must be sodium sulfite. Thanks in advance for any info!

 

[Rick A]

I don’t think permawash would mess up development to that degree?

Well, obviously it does.

 

[Jhw145]

I should clarify, it’s not completely blank, the film area got fogged (students loading a tank for the first time) so there is a discernible area where the image would be (meaning there is blank space where the film holder holds the film in). The “foggy area is streaky, but there is no image. So I’m just wondering if anyone knows if a dip in sodium sulfite would negate the image area being properly developed if the film were exposed in the camera. Thanks

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Permawash, according to a 2002 MSDS, is made from:

• AMMONIUM SULFITE, MONOHYDRATE 10196-04-0 < 20%
  
• SODIUM 2-ETHYLHEXYL SULFATE ETHYLHEXYL SULFATE, SODIUM SALT 126-92-1 < 5%

plus a possible two more "Trade Secrets": https://web.faa.illinois.edu/app/uploads/sites/6/2021/05/HEICO-–-Perma-Wash.pdf

ETHYLHEXYL SULFATE is a surfactant/wetting agent/soap precursor.

Hmmm. "Hype clear (perma wash)...," must be one of those Freudian Slip things.

 

[Jhw145]

Thank you, Nicholas! This is helpful. I was looking at the SDS sheet from 2015 and there's not much info there. I've realized I should just shoot a sheet of film and recreate the problem by using the chemicals in the wrong order. Will do that on Monday when I'm back in the lab and take a look at the Film Developing Cookbook, too.

 

[mshchem]

Some people have reportedly used (spent) high sulfite film developers as a substitute for Kodak Hypo clearing agent. I find it difficult to conceive how a sodium sulfite solution would harm film prior to development in something like D-76 or XTOL. I wouldn't waste time trying to find out though

Perma Wash must be a super secret chemical , I've always used the Kodak HCA.

 

[MattKing]

If you increase the sulfite levels in X-Tol, how might it affect its response?
Does the excess sulfite in that film serve as a restrainer?

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If you got light-strike streaks, but no image, I'd suspect that the film was never exposed. I don't think a pre-soak in PermaWash would affect development that much.

Doremus

 

[markbau]

And the main take away from this is to forget about pre-washes and to forget about hypo clearing film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

And the main take away from this is to forget about pre-washes and to forget about hypo clearing film.

If one prewashes, and I do, do it with water at the development temperature, not with hypo clearing agent.

 

[Vaughn]

"I should clarify, it’s not completely blank, the film area got fogged"

If you got light-strike streaks, but no image, I'd suspect that the film was never exposed. I don't think a pre-soak in PermaWash would affect development that much.Doremus

If you got light streaks/fogging, there was development -- I agree with Doremus...possibly no exposure on the film to develop.

 

[Jhw145]

Thanks for your replies, everyone! I appreciate the advice.

I shot a sheet this morning and repeated the erroneous steps - the film developed just fine. I haven't printed from it, but the density is normal. The film from earlier definitely seems not exposed at all - will have the students in question go over the steps with me. With 4x5 film, we usually do a minute water pre-wash step but not with roll film.

 

[MattKing]

Students are great, aren't they, at finding new ways to confound you?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Students are great, aren't they, at finding new ways to confound you?

Can you translate the first post into something understandable in English or American or Canadian?

 

[mshchem]

Fascinating!

 

[Rick A]

Thanks for your replies, everyone! I appreciate the advice.

I shot a sheet this morning and repeated the erroneous steps - the film developed just fine. I haven't printed from it, but the density is normal. The film from earlier definitely seems not exposed at all - will have the students in question go over the steps with me. With 4x5 film, we usually do a minute water pre-wash step but not with roll film.

So, was the original sheet of film exposed or not. This leads to other questions, was the dark slide pulled? Did the shutter fire? Was exposure set correctly? Was the student awake at the time?

 

[Ian Grant]

Sodium Sulphite is a weak silver solvent, Ammonium Sulphite would be a stronger silver solvent but could also potentially destroy a latent image. It is used to prepare Ammonium Thiosulphate and is a reducing agent,

Ian