Hybrid sink / processor for large fiber prints?

[Ai Print]

As I design a darkroom space, I am trying to figure out what is the biggest print size that I will be able to do, really hoping to be able to hit at least 30x40. However, at just under 150 sq. feet, the space is not exactly huge....but I do manage to pull off 20x24 in 15 sq. feet currently, so.....

The main sink (Cal Stainless) has an inside dimension of 31” x 108” so it would be too tight for standard 30x40 trays unless I came up with some other way like custom SS inserts.

So my idea is to custom build my second sink out of ply and make it the max it can be on the plumbed wall but deeper. It would have an ID of 43” x 52” and serve double duty as a large paper processor and washer. How this *might* work is with a series of holes and pumps. The sheet of paper would sit on a insert that would prevent it from sticking to the bottom of the sink, allow liquid underneath it and could be easily tipped up to drain off excess chemistry in the fiber base of the paper. The insert could also have a length of 1” PVC across the short dimension as to create a “see-saw” like method of agitation the chemistry. In the corner, there would be a low point drain that would have a fast pump on it to quickly pull chemistry out of the sink into a designated container. Chemistry would be poured into the sink via large graduates or if applicable, gallon buckets, sucked out with the pump.

I am also thinking about putting a re-circulation pump together that would siphon the chemistry out one side and gently pour it over the print with a hand held hose as an option for agitation. My big concern there is the potential for cross contamination so I need to think that over.

I see this as being a hybrid between tray processing and using the “Pour in one spout” method of rotary on a Jobo. I also have a large piece of PVC drain pipe I got some time ago that would handle 40x50 if I felt like that might be an option, my biggest concern being the paper collapsing in on itself in the pipe due to water weight.

Something tells me that if I really wrap my head around it, I could design and build a custom sink paper processor for 30x40 and 40x50 but there are things to be looked at, hence my thinking out loud in this post. Custom made SS 30x40 trays that would fit in the two sinks could work, but for that kind of dough…I am leaning towards going full tilt custom on the sink.

I am well aware of the trough-tray and scrolling method and I am not ruling that out either, but I am trying to be innovative about it all too.

Whatcha “sink” about this one?

 

[mshchem]

Have you considered a piece of 12 in dia. PVC or drainage pipe with the paper attached to the OUTSIDE of the pipe. Make it 42 inches long. Attach supports at the ends and spin it like a Ferris wheel. Lift one end and slide a tray of solution under and spin away. Back in the old days Popular Mechanics had "build your own" movie film processors that used lath attached to wheels, to spool on your film.
Just a thought.
Another proven method is the famous "see saw" method for roll film development. Google, Trident Film Dish.
Best Regards, Mike

 

[Ai Print]

Have you considered a piece of 12 in dia. PVC or drainage pipe with the paper attached to the OUTSIDE of the pipe. Make it 42 inches long. Attach supports at the ends and spin it like a Ferris wheel. Lift one end and slide a tray of solution under and spin away. Back in the old days Popular Mechanics had "build your own" movie film processors that used lath attached to wheels, to spool on your film.
Just a thought.
Another proven method is the famous "see saw" method for roll film development. Google, Trident Film Dish.
Best Regards, Mike

Definitely thought of that. But that pipe I have which I could do that with is pretty heavy and if wrapped around the outside securely, then the paper could buckle as it expands from being wet. I am actually thinking of a cylinder of mesh so that it can also be washed, not weigh more than 5 pounds. Maybe with 16"x52"x4" troughs in the sinks, I could move the paper covered spool from tray to tray?

There is certainly a way, just got to figure it out.

 

[Paul Howell]

I think I would just use the second sink with a standard drain and second drain to drain fix into a bottle for fix disposal. Use a stainless steel screen to hold the print off the bottom, maybe an inch. Lay the print on the screen face up, add developer, don't bother using a pump, just use gloves to keep the developer moving, drain to waste, close drain add stop bath same, drain to waste, add fix 1, use fix that you use for smaller prints, drain to storage bottle for disposal, then fresh fix for fix 2, after fixing, drain to bottle for reuse rinse using a hose then perma wash or hypo clearing agent. The only chemistry I would attempt to resuse is the second fix. Wash in the sink by regulating the drain, if the weather permits outside using a kiddy wading pool.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Would Deville's Bobinoir system fit in your space?



If you find the PDF on their site, you can see the dimensions of the unit.

 

[Ai Print]

I think I would just use the second sink with a standard drain and second drain to drain fix into a bottle for fix disposal. Use a stainless steel screen to hold the print off the bottom, maybe an inch. Lay the print on the screen face up, add developer, don't bother using a pump, just use gloves to keep the developer moving, drain to waste, close drain add stop bath same, drain to waste, add fix 1, use fix that you use for smaller prints, drain to storage bottle for disposal, then fresh fix for fix 2, after fixing, drain to bottle for reuse rinse using a hose then perma wash or hypo clearing agent. The only chemistry I would attempt to resuse is the second fix. Wash in the sink by regulating the drain, if the weather permits outside using a kiddy wading pool.

Exactly, I should just build the sink out to spec and if it does not work, I still have a great 2nd sink which I need anyway for print washers, CPP3.

Would Deville's Bobinoir system fit in your space?
If you find the PDF on their site, you can see the dimensions of the unit.

I think it might be a tad too big but wow, what a great system!
Looks to be about 3K shipped too, not bad for what it allows.

 

[Ai Print]

On second thought, the rack system of the Deville could actually work. But in seeing what I am from photoimpex, I am not sure it is something we can get in the U.S?

Anyone know of how to import this product into the states?

 

[tedr1]

Generally speaking there are three parts to getting something from Europe. 1. payment = credit card or paypal. 2. shipping = UPS operates everywhere, have the manufacturer get a quotation for the specified size and weight to your zipcode. 3. customs fees = UPS may have a calculator for this, if not call your local friendly US customs office tell them it is darkroom equipment and the value and they will tell you how much (if any) import duty is chargeable. The usual thing is UPS adds this sum to their bill, they collect for the US customs service. If it something big expect a shock with the shipping charges.

 

[john_s]

I wonder if DHL might be cheaper. I'm in Australia and have paid big money for shipments from time to time but DHL seems to be competing effectively these days.

I have tried Lloyd Erlick's suggestion for single tray processing with success. I made a timber tray and lined it with plastic sheet. Have a look at:
http://heylloyd.com/technicl/technicl.html

 

[Ai Print]

I get all this, have had no issues buying RH Designs equipment, etc, but it seems Photoimpex won't ship more than 990 Euro outside the EU. I have written them but I am still waiting to hear back.

As an aside, the Deville design has my "wheels" turning as well. I could easily design something like this and make it for a few hundred bucks. I would cut that darn 10.75" x 48" drain pipe in half and make two troughs, build a third out of PVC-1 plastic. All three would easily fit in the two sinks, then I could drop in an apparatus similar to the Deville Bobinoir and do successive sheets instead of it being a much slower operation in using the drain and fill in the sink.

So many ideas coming in to my head now, I am optimistic it will work out.

 

[M Carter]

I've given a lot of thought to this with the goal of doing emulsion-coated canvas up to maybe 4' x 6'. I don't want to do the "roll it through a trough" as the emulsion is delicate.

I talked to some boatbuilders about fiberglass/epoxy and they just laughed - "it ain't a boat, porchpaint and poly glue with plywood is almost overkill".

I need mine to be the easel as well, so on leveling legs high enough to get a large bucket under, and a valved drain at one end, wall mounted enlarger. In my situation it would be easy to add a 2nd drain that goes straight to the house drain for washing. My plan is to raise the primed sides of the canvas with some sort of thin removable walls so the canvas acts as a 2nd tray, to keep chems from the back side. Flap the lower end of the canvas down to drain.

Considering the weight and amount of chemistry, I'm thinking some sort of electric motor with eccentric cams (cams could just be wood) as a "tray rocker". Seems at that size, rocking the tray could be difficult. I may add something like a fountain pump for the final wash, may not be needed though. I'll need to chill all my chemistry for the emulsion, but cooler+ice+coiled hose should do fine.

You'd need to calculate the chemistry needed for your size, but I assume I'll just buy powdered chemistry from Arista or something, and try to have a 2nd canvas and neg ready - if I screw up the first I can have a redo, or try for a 2nd image with all the chemistry mixed. Been saving the big plastic cat litter jugs...

 

[Ai Print]

The amount of needed chemistry equation is an interesting one. One gallon of liquid is 231 cubic inches, that gets to be a lot of chemistry in a big hurry if you are doing something like 30x40's and larger. But in actual use, folks seem to be getting away with a lot less, I sure do when I do 20x24's in my Jobo 3063 drum.

Still figuring that out too, I don't want to be dealing with more than 3-4 gallons of chemistry per step if I can help it.

 

[Paul Howell]

I knew a photographer in the 70's, in Sacramento, he had large basement darkroom with a floor drain, he laid out his large prints on the floor face up, used a spray gun to coat with chemistry, used a hose to wash the chemistry down the drain, to wash he just flooded the basement, he moved everything off the floor and warped the legs of the enlarger bench and sink with plastic. Wore waders. Others use to use mops. Don't recall how much chemistry he used, maybe a quart or 2, but not more than a gallon. He was a renter, when his landlord found he got kicked out. Printed from 5X7 with a vertical enlarger. I thought he was nuts, other than waders no protective gear, gloves, safety goggles, no ventilation, likley was good for the foundation.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I knew a photographer in the 70's, in Sacramento, he had large basement darkroom with a floor drain, he laid out his large prints on the floor face up, used a spray gun to coat with chemistry, used a hose to wash the chemistry down the drain, to wash he just flooded the basement, he moved everything off the floor and warped the legs of the enlarger bench and sink with plastic. Wore waders. Others use to use mops. Don't recall how much chemistry he used, maybe a quart or 2, but not more than a gallon. He was a renter, when his landlord found he got kicked out. Printed from 5X7 with a vertical enlarger. I thought he was nuts, other than waders no protective gear, gloves, safety goggles, no ventilation, likley was good for the foundation.

Yes he was nuts

but effective

 

[M Carter]

I knew a photographer in the 70's, in Sacramento, he had large basement darkroom with a floor drain, he laid out his large prints on the floor face up, used a spray gun to coat with chemistry, used a hose to wash the chemistry down the drain, to wash he just flooded the basement, he moved everything off the floor and warped the legs of the enlarger bench and sink with plastic. Wore waders. Others use to use mops. Don't recall how much chemistry he used, maybe a quart or 2, but not more than a gallon. He was a renter, when his landlord found he got kicked out. Printed from 5X7 with a vertical enlarger. I thought he was nuts, other than waders no protective gear, gloves, safety goggles, no ventilation, likley was good for the foundation.

Not as nuts as you might think... our basement in Michigan occasionally flooded to 12" deep if there was a big enough storm. Just water backing up from the floor drain, surprisingly pretty clean. Concrete floor with block walls, floor covered in adhesive linoleum squares. It would drain away, we'd mop, really no issues with the foundation or anything and the floor stayed put. (those basement slabs are probably 6" - 10" thick). I'd guess doing it your friend's way would be similar to using a hose to really wash out a basement, something many people did when they'd buy a house or do a serious cleaning. And until it's toning time, the chemistry just isn't that bothersome to most of us far as protective gear.

Still, doing that as a renter? Ballsy move. I'd think making a frame and using a tarp to make a giant try might be more sensible. But the floor drain just ties into the storm drains or sewers, far as I understand.

And yes, do the math on your chems. It adds up very fast and water is very heavy.