HUGE Scratches on my negatives - why?

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

I recently became the proud owner of a fuji 6x9 camera (gw690iii) and I just got my first two rolls of film back from the lab, only to find that one of the two rolls has some very large, deep horizontal scratches across the negatives near the bottom.

This only happened to one of the two rolls I put through the camera. I have checked the camera over - the rollers and pressure plates don't appear to have any rough parts that could scratch film.

I called the lab, they said they noticed the scratches but suggested that they had put plenty of other rolls of film through the processor that day and had no problems with others.

The scratch appears to be on both sides of the negatives.

I need to find out whats causing this, part of me hopes it's something in my camera which i can easily fix (though it doesn't appear to be) but i'm leaning towards it being the labs fault - which is a shame because it would shatter my confidence in getting film developed by a lab and they're the only lab anywhere near me that can develop 120

See attached photos

Mr Bill · Jul 6, 2017

Hi, I'd go back to the lab and let them see the film. I can't be sure, looking at the images you posted, but it looks to me like the scratch (or gouge) stops and starts several times near at least one of the ends. This, I think, is more typical of something that happens when the film is wet; you might mention this to the lab and see what they say.

That mark looks like a very substantial amount of damage. Usually color films, when heavily pressed like this, get a pressure sensitization effect, and make a darker mark. But yours seems to be lighter, suggesting that it was not done prior to development. But this is a crude appraisal, and might not be right. I'd personally inspect the film with a magnifier to see if emulsion has been gouged out - this is really difficult for a camera to do, really difficult.

In either case, a lot probably just depends on how they react to the problem. Cuz if you don't think you can trust them...

mshchem · Jul 6, 2017

I've been using these cameras for over 20 years, never a single scratch. I process all my film myself.

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

Hi Bill, Thank you for your response and insight. I have a couple of higher resolution images uploaded here -

https://flic.kr/p/VdjhvY
https://flic.kr/p/Wr1BrA

I understand what you're saying about it being difficult for the camera to cause a gouge as severe as this - those were my initial thoughts also. I called the lab when I first saw the negs when I got home (I will be checking them on pickup next time, if there is a next time), they didn't give me much to go by at all. That said, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know enough about the process overall to be able to confidently point fingers, and thats not really my style anyway. I've always been interested in developing film at home, I guess this is the reason to have a serious look into it.

I think that unless I can definitively rule the lab out as a suspect, i'll have a really hard time outsourcing my developing in the future. For what it's worth, the scans they supplied me with were of terrible quality as well.

After all, it's easier to be mad at myself for screwing something up (and learning from it) than do nothing wrong and still have photos ruined.

Thanks again.

Still hoping some others can chime in and help me confirm what caused it

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

As for the depth of the gouge - it looks to me like it's not far from going all the way through the film...

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

mshchem said:
I've been using these cameras for over 20 years, never a single scratch. I process all my film myself.

I may have to join the club.

Still, I'm happy to learn this now, at the beginning of my film career, where my first few rolls were largely test shots/snapshots. It would be truly heartbreaking to have this happen to images that I put my all into.

As I said before, it'd be easier to take if it was my own error.

MattKing · Jul 6, 2017

Ask your lab whether they use dip and dunk equipment or roller transport equipment.

faberryman · Jul 6, 2017

If the scratches are on one roll but not the other, it is unlikely the issue is with the camera.

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

MattKing said:
Ask your lab whether they use dip and dunk equipment or roller transport equipment.

I just called them, they said roller.

Sirius Glass · Jul 6, 2017

Welcome to APUG

Now take the two rolls back to them and have a direct talk with the manager. It is their equipment that did it as stated in posts #8 and #9.

chassis · Jul 6, 2017

jakehall I agree with the comments that it is likely the lab machinery that caused the scratches.

Looks like photos of the Twelve Apostles. Great place. I lived in Geelong a while ago and drove through Lorne a few times, and fished up and down the coast in that area. Beautiful part of the world.

jakehall · Jul 6, 2017

chassis said:
jakehall I agree with the comments that it is likely the lab machinery that caused the scratches.

Looks like photos of the Twelve Apostles. Great place. I lived in Geelong a while ago and drove through Lorne a few times, and fished up and down the coast in that area. Beautiful part of the world.

It is the 12(ish) Apostles, you're absolutely right. I just migrated to Lorne (from England originally). I couldn't have picked a more beautiful place to live. I hear the fishing is great! I think i'll stick to the one time consuming, expensive, low-likelyhood-of-a-keeper hobby though!

mshchem · Jul 7, 2017

jakehall said:
I may have to join the club.

Still, I'm happy to learn this now, at the beginning of my film career, where my first few rolls were largely test shots/snapshots. It would be truly heartbreaking to have this happen to images that I put my all into.

As I said before, it'd be easier to take if it was my own error.

I've had 5 of these cameras, now down to just 3 , GSW690III, GW690III, and my first one a nice GW690II. Nothing gets in the way. No battery, meter etc.
C-41 processing is SOOOO easy. all you need is a decent tank a thermometer and a sink. If the temperature varies a bit so will your film speed. From the looks of those nice negatives you know how to expose film. Another advantage of not having an in camera meter.
To Matt's point for commercial labs, if it's not dip and dunk, (getting rare) there's a risk. I am 60, have lost a little of my youthful bravery, I use simple toy IR goggles when I load anything, reels, hangers, holders whatever. But I'm sure I can still load reels in the dark. I'm not sure about what chemicals you have access to. Here in the US I buy the Kodak Flexicolor RA chems.

Any quality small kit is a great place to start. One POSITIVE. Those negs. are so big, crop out the scratch and make some panoramic , instead of 6x9 make 3x9s. God I love film!
Best Mike

MattKing · Jul 7, 2017

I can't really see it well enough from the image posted, but it looks to me to be more like a handling problem when dry than a scratch when wet.
It needs to be looked at carefully in real life.
I'm going to defend the lab - sort of.
If you run a lab, even with the highest standards and best trained, most careful workers, sometimes things go wrong.
Take the film (both rolls) and the camera to them, and see what they tell you.
If they otherwise are a well run operation, with good people and equipment, and handle your problem well, I wouldn't suggest you change.

georgegrosu · Jul 7, 2017

What I see in the pictures are just deep intermittent scratches on the emulsion.
The emulsion was taken.
This type of scratches (line) usually appear on machines / cameras.
This type of scratch can not be made by hand.
The film goes through a series of machines and cameras:
- in fabrication of film;
- when cutting and packaging the film;
- cameras;
- possible in processing of the film.
Jakehall, you say scratches are on both sides of the film (emulsion and support?).
„The scratch appears to be on both sides of the negatives.”
I do not see scratches on your support.
They would see black on the film.
The scratches that appear on the machines are continuous or intermittent with an equal distance between them.
The fact that a film came out without scratches and another with very serious intermittent scratches I think
the trouble occurred either in the camera or in the film cutting and packaging phase.
In these two cases the film moves intermittently, not continuously.
On a processing machine, a malfunction occurs on all the films.

George

AgX · Jul 7, 2017

georgegrosu said:
On a processing machine, a malfunction occurs on all the films.

Is that so? Even a mechanic malfunction can be erratic too.

georgegrosu · Jul 7, 2017

AgX, In my English, I wanted to say that scratches that are not continuous repeat at equal distances on the film.
Mechanical malfunctions are either continuous or intermittent and repeat at equal distances.

George

Harry Stevens · Jul 7, 2017

Film is full of problems and issues thats part of why I like it, just move on I would.

georgegrosu · Jul 7, 2017

AgX, I come back and fill out.
Defects that may occur on machines that carry the film continuously may occur differently than faults
on film cutters and wrapping films or the camera carrying intermittent the film.

George

MattKing · Jul 7, 2017

Or in something like the post-development sleeving or negative cutting steps.

railwayman3 · Jul 7, 2017

If you've checked the camera thoroughly, I'd incline towards a lab fault, particularly as they use roller processors. Could be just a one-off issue, maybe grit in the machine, which, unfortunately (or fortunately) only affected one film. I'd go with MattKing, let the lab see the films and camera, and see how they handle it.

As an electronics friend said to me recently regarding an unexplained glitch on a hi-fi set-up......if it happens once it's an anomoly, if it happens again you're dealing with a fault.

georgegrosu · Jul 7, 2017

If you look at the image https://www.flickr.com/photos/132262010@N07/34926274234/ which has the bottom 10 and 11 and the top 53 and 54.
At the top of the frame, outside the frame, between 53 and 54 is KODAK EKTAR 100 photo print.
Under this KODAK a slightly diffuse black stripe is seen.
I think it comes from the mechanical fog of the film (camera).
I come back to the scratch you are claiming at the image https://www.flickr.com/photos/132262010@N07/34926274234/ .
Between 10 and 11, in the middle, it is an arrow from which start emulsion pinches (stings) that run parallel to the main scratch.
I have such stings with my Pentacon Six camera, only on the film marker portion.

George

Ces1um · Apr 14, 2018

I find this post particularly interesting. I have scratches that show up in 35mm film and everyone blames the film cartridge, not the lab. Now that I see this post I have to wonder if it really is the cartridge and not how my film is processed afterwards... Now that I reflect even further I haven't seen scratches like this show up when I develop my own 35mm black and white- only when i send colour film to the lab. This also makes me wonder if ferrania p30's scratching issue was really an issue to do with the film and perhaps more to do with how it was developed afterwards. @jakehall- thanks for posting this!

Sirius Glass · Apr 14, 2018

I have had negatives and slides scratched by film rollers and surfaces in cameras, film cassettes, commercial photofinishers as well as my own sheet film tray development. Now that I have checked every cameras' film transport, use commercially packaged 35mm film, and do my own tank and drum processing, and thrown out film squeegees, I have eliminated scratches.

illumiquest · Apr 14, 2018

Has you been taking your film to Hugh for processing?

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