Yeah.
And, besides, it's not as if the Japanese are unfamiliar with high quality optics now, is it?
Did anyone here say "Nikkor"?
Huge price drop by Zeiss Ikon
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Yeah.
And, besides, it's not as if the Japanese are unfamiliar with high quality optics now, is it?
Did anyone here say "Nikkor"?
Afer a large digression...... back to the original topic....
I am really surprised that they are dropping the prices when Leica M mount lenses are at a premium following the introduction of the M8.
Having just bought the 28mm and 50mm ZM lenses, they are fantastic and so much cheaper than the Leica equivalents which are also subject to serious delays in availability.
I am really surprised that they are dropping the prices when Leica M mount lenses are at a premium following the introduction of the M8.
Having just bought the 28mm and 50mm ZM lenses, they are fantastic and so much cheaper than the Leica equivalents which are also subject to serious delays in availability.
Which is also the undesirable result of Leica's doing so well. Camera sales are back to late '60s levels, so that they had to increase M8 production by 50 per cent, and the M8 has dragged MP and M7 sales up with it. (I was at the factory last month).
Cheers,
Roger
Here's my question: Is Sigma closer to being "German" by producing Leica and Yashica-Contax optics, than Coisna is, which is of course all about Zeiss brand now?
Baxter,
It has nothing to do with the M8.
Referring back to the OP, this price reduction is part of a concerted attempt by Zeiss to kill off the grey market for their products in North America. They did a similar move with the (Cosina-built/Zeiss inspected) ZI cameras here last Winter including pressuring non-authorized dealers to drop their grey-imported Zeiss product offerings.
The entire industry is trying to accomplish this - Zeiss seems to be among the most pro-active with these kinds of moves.
Where do the grey products come from? I don't understand how it could be true that Cosina and/or Zeiss cannot control where things go when they leave the factory... Is it that rogue resellers are selling below MSRP? If so then why not just cut out the offending resellers. What am I missing!
Anyway, I don't have any issues whatsoever with Cosina and their relationship with Z. The ZI is one amazing piece.
Anyway, I don't have any issues whatsoever with Cosina and their relationship with Z. The ZI is one amazing piece.
Interesting. Will you be reporting on this visit in say, Shutterbug?
(I am still undecided about Leica Camera A.G.: On the one hand, I feel the normal laws of economics should apply to them as well (If they can't survive they don't deserve to survive) but, on the other hand, I would hate to see a company like that go under. So this may be very good news indeed.)
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
Grey markets come into being when different national distributors have different pricing structures that are not controlled centrally. If Zeiss USA wants to sell their products at a higher price than the distributor in another country--perhaps justifiably because they put more money into advertising (Zeiss USA brochures are astonishingly slick)--then they'll have a grey market problem.
At least Zeiss is dealing with it by adjusting prices and trying to figure out how to operate under modern market conditions, unlike MAC, which tried to force greater compliance through U.S. Customs by stopping Mamiyas and Toyos at the border, or HP marketing which will close down eBay auctions if they might bring about the unauthorized import of a Heliopan step-up ring into the U.S. Not that MAC and HP aren't justified in attempting to protect their trademarks, but it seems like a hopeless cause.
At least Zeiss is dealing with it by adjusting prices and trying to figure out how to operate under modern market conditions, unlike MAC, which tried to force greater compliance through U.S. Customs by stopping Mamiyas and Toyos at the border, or HP marketing which will close down eBay auctions if they might bring about the unauthorized import of a Heliopan step-up ring into the U.S. Not that MAC and HP aren't justified in attempting to protect their trademarks, but it seems like a hopeless cause.
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As I understand it - and I'm no expert by any means - it is possible for a US retailer to order goods from a domestic Japanese supplier. Such goods are intended for that domestic market but are instead shipped overseas. This is as opposed to US retailers ordering from an authorized importer (e.g. Nikon USA) at MSRP.
These goods are not authorized for sale in the US and hence do not carry the manufacturer's warranty etc.
It wouldn't surprise me to find that the grey market for Japanese camera gear and electronics etc. originally (e.g. 1950's) arose from US GIs and others buying the goods in Japan for friends etc. shortly before returning to the US.
...and why are we complaining? I think Zeiss came to the realization that to curb the grey market problem is to adjust the pricing to what the market will bear. They chose the easier of two routes to solve this problem.
I am not complaining because I would love to get a 50 f2 planar lens for my Leica M3 and the 50 f1.4 ZF for my Nikons.
I am not complaining because I would love to get a 50 f2 planar lens for my Leica M3 and the 50 f1.4 ZF for my Nikons.
LOL
Anyhow, one thing I have noticed about these Japanese-made, German-inspected products are not as widely available in the Japanese market as they should've been because they are treated as "foreign" products. In the Japanese market, the releases of ZI products seem always delayed with slightly higher price-settings compared to the U.S market.
The same goes to the sales of Leica M8 and MP, which have created a lot of grey market areas because it is much cheaper (about 1000-2000 USD cheaper but without the warranty) to buy one of those from the current U.S. market than the Japanese. Some well-known Leica dealers are offering those grey M8 and MP bodies over here.
This kind of reminds me of the marketing (and the availability) of the multi-tool brand Gerber. The Gerber multi-tools, as far as I know, are made in the rural town in Gifu prefecture, which is known for making sharp knives, and that is not far from where I live actually. But the closest place I can buy one is Tokyo's Ueno market, and it's one of the very few places in the country selling it. And it's expensive there. But if you're in the U.S., every knife shop has it at a relatively low price, and that makes me want to order it from there instead.
As another note, grey market is espescially attractive when the item does not require the "value added" of a manufacturer's warranty.
For example, I'd be leery of buying a new Leica M8 on the grey market as it is a very sophisticated piece of electronic gear. And it has had some "teething problems" with IR and banding requiring retrofitting at Solms.
However, a manual lens such as a Cosnina-built ZM or ZF is either going to be good from the get go - or no good. Most grey market sellers are respectable retailers and will accept return of defective goods. So if the lens out of the box is "no good" it's no big deal to return it.
Similarly, if the lens is good - it's likely to remain so - unless damaged by the user.
This is likely what is driving Zeiss's decision. Few buyers would have any hesitancy in buying a grey market manual lens - the lack of a warranty is no big deal. That wouldn't necessarily be the case with other, more complex gear where a lot could go wrong even after being put in use in which case a warranty would be critical.
For example, I'd be leery of buying a new Leica M8 on the grey market as it is a very sophisticated piece of electronic gear. And it has had some "teething problems" with IR and banding requiring retrofitting at Solms.
However, a manual lens such as a Cosnina-built ZM or ZF is either going to be good from the get go - or no good. Most grey market sellers are respectable retailers and will accept return of defective goods. So if the lens out of the box is "no good" it's no big deal to return it.
Similarly, if the lens is good - it's likely to remain so - unless damaged by the user.
This is likely what is driving Zeiss's decision. Few buyers would have any hesitancy in buying a grey market manual lens - the lack of a warranty is no big deal. That wouldn't necessarily be the case with other, more complex gear where a lot could go wrong even after being put in use in which case a warranty would be critical.
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LOL
... In the Japanese market, the releases of ZI products seem always delayed with slightly higher price-settings compared to the U.S market.
The same goes to the sales of Leica M8 and MP, which have created a lot of grey market areas because it is much cheaper (about 1000-2000 USD cheaper but without the warranty) to buy one of those from the current U.S. market than the Japanese. Some well-known Leica dealers are offering those grey M8 and MP bodies over here.
This kind of reminds me of the marketing (and the availability) of the multi-tool brand Gerber. The Gerber multi-tools, as far as I know, are made in the rural town in Gifu prefecture, which is known for making sharp knives, and that is not far from where I live actually. But the closest place I can buy one is Tokyo's Ueno market, and it's one of the very few places in the country selling it. And it's expensive there. But if you're in the U.S., every knife shop has it at a relatively low price, and that makes me want to order it from there instead.
Hi Firecracker:
For years to keep itself competitive Japan has charged more for its products on the home market. Autos, cameras, consumer electronics and many more products are/were less expensive here in the U.S.A.
When I travel to Japan I always visit "Yodobashi Camera" in Shinjuku to "window shop" but probably only buy on the U.S.A. market.
Howard Tanger
Exactly my point! You have the luxury and the best price over there in the U.S. no matter what origin(s) of the brand(s) you choose.
For example, for big companies like Nikon and Toyota, the U.S. market is where their top priortities are, not the Japanese market, which many people don't really seem to understand.
TheFlyingCamera
Membership Council
Exactly my point! You have the luxury and the best price over there in the U.S. no matter what origin(s) of the brand(s) you choose.
For example, for big companies like Nikon and Toyota, the U.S. market is where their top priortities are, not the Japanese market, which many people don't really seem to understand.
They compensate for that though by producing products ONLY for the Japanese market, though. Things like the Nissan Skyline GTR, the "kei" cars (for those who don't know, Kei cars are a sub-mini class of automobiles designed for urban driving conditions, with very small engines, high fuel efficiency, and extremely efficient space utilization), and tons of consumer electronics products - lots of TVs, stereo components, and portable electronic devices are never sold outside of Japan (or perhaps Japan and Taiwan).
Yes, true that there are tons of gadgets that are "Japanese-only", but they are more for the mid-range mass market in the economic scale. But the high-end luxurious stuff, like Toyota Lexus for one, is different; it was first introduced in the U.S. market and so on. Supposedly it was too luxurious to do well (by competing German brands) in the Japanese market. The marketing of high-end cameras such as ZI and Leica, despite where they are being manufactured today, seems to follow the same path.
David A. Goldfarb
Moderator
One of my students told me that, alas, goth versions of Hello Kitty with piercings and tattoos are not sold outside Japan.
Do you think there are as many kinds of Barbie dolls in the Japanese market?
My point was that Japan is (always being targetted as) a big Leica market, but when it comes down to being introduced to the new stuff, the supply doesn't meet the demand.
Other camera manufacturers have dealt with the gray market by steadfastly refusing to service under warranty (and sometimes out of warranty) any camera or lens purchased outside the market of the intended country.
Certainly, Carl Zeiss (and other camera makers) have every right to control the distribution and pricing of its products -- no matter if the consumer agrees or disagrees. However, it's also true that the consumer votes with their pocketbook, so that's the other side of this matter.
Separately, a number of people continue to believe that Carl Zeiss lenses and cameras are simply rebadged, warmed-over Cosina products. This is not true.
When you purchase a Carl Zeiss lens, you are purchasing a lens with a specific name, design and history. There is a reason that the 15mm lens carries the name "Distagon" and not "Hologon." It also the reason why there is the 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar and a 50mm f/2.0 Planar. It's not simply a matter of making the aperture larger and changing the name.
Carl Zeiss AG is a highly profitable company. Much of its revenue is not derived from still photography. For fiscal year 2006. the company experienced double-digit percentage growth in revenue and earnings, cash on hand of 637 million euros, 11,433 global employees, investment in its businesses of 118 million euros and 254 million euros on research and development. That's a very impressive balance sheet.
Certainly, Carl Zeiss (and other camera makers) have every right to control the distribution and pricing of its products -- no matter if the consumer agrees or disagrees. However, it's also true that the consumer votes with their pocketbook, so that's the other side of this matter.
Separately, a number of people continue to believe that Carl Zeiss lenses and cameras are simply rebadged, warmed-over Cosina products. This is not true.
When you purchase a Carl Zeiss lens, you are purchasing a lens with a specific name, design and history. There is a reason that the 15mm lens carries the name "Distagon" and not "Hologon." It also the reason why there is the 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar and a 50mm f/2.0 Planar. It's not simply a matter of making the aperture larger and changing the name.
Carl Zeiss AG is a highly profitable company. Much of its revenue is not derived from still photography. For fiscal year 2006. the company experienced double-digit percentage growth in revenue and earnings, cash on hand of 637 million euros, 11,433 global employees, investment in its businesses of 118 million euros and 254 million euros on research and development. That's a very impressive balance sheet.
And the people in the photography department are real enthusiasts: I visited the factory last month. As they said, "We're used to working with partners. We've been doing it a long time. But we have to be sure that if it says 'Zeiss' on it, it has received Zeiss quality control."
Also, athough it's an AG, an Aktiengesellschaft (sp?) or limited liability company, as far as I am aware all the shares are owned by the Carl Zeiss Foundation, so they are not blown by the winds of the stockmarket, private equity companies or 'trophy' owners, unlike Leica. This means they can plant further ahead with more confidence -- one of the reasons for their success. Though I also visited Leica, and they are doing very nicely thank you -- better than they have for years, with M-series sales at the levels of 40 years ago.
Cheers,
Roger
Great news, but by M cameras, are you talking M8 as well as M7 an MP? I'm just curious as to how the MP and M7 are faring in todays digital-dominant market.
Jim B.
It bodes well for photography (and photographers) that both companies are in strong financial positions.
It would be a real shame if either company would be forced to withdraw from the market because of financial considerations. One of photography's great losses was the demise of Zeiss Ikon in the 1970s.
It would be a real shame if either company would be forced to withdraw from the market because of financial considerations. One of photography's great losses was the demise of Zeiss Ikon in the 1970s.
Dear Jim,
Yes. The M8 is outselling both the M7 and MP by quite a margin, but M7 and MP sales have been dragged up by an increased awareness of M-rangefinders, so (slightly unexpectedly) they're selling more of those too.
Cheers,
Roger
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Wonderful news. I wonder if the affordabiility of zeis optics has helped boos Leica body sales too? The bodies might be expensive but pale into insignificance when compared to the set of lenses! I know CV lenses are very affordable but Zeiss optics arguable occupy a different niche. It certainly allowed me into the M market as I have M bodies and mostle Zeiss lenses. This saved me a fortune and were it not for the Zeiss optics being affordable I might never have made the plunge, although in the end I prob would have bought CV lenses. Zeiss opics seemed in so many ways to exploit a middle ground that nither CV nor Leica had quite managed to deal with.
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