Hp5+ for snow scenes and what developer combo

I haven't shot any HP5+ in sometime now and have three rolls of 120 film to play with. We had a beautiful fresh snowfall and I'm going out tomorrow to take advantage of it. I plan on rating the HP5+ at 320 and developing one roll in Claytons F76+ and another roll in Pyrocat-MC. That leaves one roll for another developer. Any suggestions? I also have available to use, at the moment, Pyrocat-HD, FX37, Beutler HD, Perceptol, homebrewed Microdol, Rodinal/Adonal and WD2D+ pyro. Plus, the chemicals to make others, but figure these should be enough to choose from. I know I should test, but I only have three rolls and a short time frame for the fresh snow. JW

Microdol 1:3 homebrew--my developer forever in 35mm.

Tom1956 said:

Microdol 1:3 homebrew--my developer forever in 35mm.

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I don't think I'd use my "homebrew", but Perceptol 1+3 is an option. It's also something I have used with PanF+ a lot. In fact, Perceptol 1+3 and Rodinal 1+100 are the best I have ever used with PanF+. There might be better combinations, but I haven't seen it yet. Still, I'm dealing with HP5+ and no recent experience. Perceptol is a pretty good developer at 1+3 because it seems so slow and easy to control with the longer developing times. JW

I've been shooting a lot of HP5 in 120 size lately. Both Rodinal and PMK work beautifully.


This is HP5 shot at EI-320 and developed normally in Rodinal 1+50.



HP5 at EI-250 and developed normally in PMK



HP5 at EI-250 and developed normally in PMK

Both developers give excellent highlight and shadow detail. Rodinal gives slightly more film speed, but the grain gives it a gritty look. I like it for some subjects. PMK gives smoother tonality and much finer grain, at the cost of a slight loss is effective film speed.

chriscrawfordphoto said:

I've been shooting a lot of HP5 in 120 size lately. Both Rodinal and PMK work beautifully.

This is HP5 shot at EI-320 and developed normally in Rodinal 1+50.

HP5 at EI-250 and developed normally in PMK

HP5 at EI-250 and developed normally in PMK

Both developers give excellent highlight and shadow detail. Rodinal gives slightly more film speed, but the grain gives it a gritty look. I like it for some subjects. PMK gives smoother tonality and much finer grain, at the cost of a slight loss is effective film speed.

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Chris,
Those all look very good and I really like the first one. The first one has good shadow detail and I can see good detail in the white snow on the roof. I have always heard folks say the HP5 and Rodinal were not very good together, but I've never really tried it myself. I'm sure that if I used WD2D+ I'd get very easy to print negatives, but knowing that already leads me to want to try a different soup. For high contrast scenes WD2D+ works just fine. Chris, my kid brother drives taxi in Fort Wayne and I usually make it down there a couple times a year. JW

I have no snow scenes to offer as we're in Florida :]

But I develop HP5 in D76 and it looks great. Acufine is good too. Very sharp & clear negs, but doesn't have the tonality of D76. Tried it in Rodinal several times....not so good compared to those two developers. It's doable, but the grain I get is objectionable on many shots, and the tonality is compressed. I shoot 35mm, so grain is more of an issue than with 120.

Films like Tri-X and HP5 are very developer friendly. Actually I get good stuff from 35mm Tri-X in Rodinal IF the metering is spot on, but that's not your question.

Any standard film developer should work. Good Snow is more a question of good metering than the developer choice. Rodinal not working with HP5 is BS it's not ideal for grainless prints but other than that I see no reason not to use Rodinal with HP5. If you want great shadow detail from this combo just expose HP at E.I. 320 or 250 like Chris did.

The Internet as a source of information is only excelled by the Internet as source of disinformation and BS.

Its also very good for photographing in wet conditions.....and boy we have plenty of wet !

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited England ( land of big rivers and inland lakes )

Q : Do know how to tell England in the summer ?

A : The rain gets marginally warmer.....

MDR said:

Any standard film developer should work. Good Snow is more a question of good metering than the developer choice. Rodinal not working with HP5 is BS it's not ideal for grainless prints but other than that I see no reason not to use Rodinal with HP5. If you want great shadow detail from this combo just expose HP at E.I. 320 or 250 like Chris did.

The Internet as a source of information is only excelled by the Internet as source of disinformation and BS.

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Yes, "believe only 50% of what you see and 0% of what you hear" pretty much covers the Internet. Common sense is a must when you surf and if it sounds to good to be true then it is to good to be true. Still, I love it for things like this. I planned on rating it at E.I of 320 for the MQ/PQ style developers and E.I. 250 for WD2D+ if I end up using it. Pyrocat-MC seems a little different when it comes to speed in that I don't seem to lose that much with films like Acros-Kentmere-TMY2, but that could be just the way I process.

Simon R Galley said:

Its also very good for photographing in wet conditions.....and boy we have plenty of wet !

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited England ( land of big rivers and inland lakes )

Q : Do know how to tell England in the summer ?

A : The rain gets marginally warmer.....

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Simon,
I was wondering why Ilford has no times for HP5+ in Perceptol 1+1, 1+2 or 1+3? I've used Perceptol 1+3 with PanF and it's great. The list of developers on the inside of the film box is a long one so I guess HP5+ must not be very fussy as to developer. The PanF+ film box list Microdol-X 1+3 and not Perceptol 1+3, which puzzles me a little bit since I've always heard they were very much alike. In fact it has Perceptol straight(1+0) or 1+1 as the only two choices for PanF+. Any reason Ilford stays away from 1+2 or 1+3 dilutions for Perceptol? JW
We got 6 inches of real cold white rain last night to pile on the couple of feet we already have on the ground. Michigan has been hit pretty hard this winter and Lake Michigan was nearly frozen over clear to Wisconsin. It's also been one of the longest cold spells I can remember in my 64 years in Michigan. I hear we might really get some rain Thursday and that will be the first above 32 degree day in a long, long time. In Michigan the saying is, "If you don't like the weather just wait a few hours". It all could be worse of course, I could live in wet, dull weathered Merry Old England!

JW PHOTO said:

I haven't shot any HP5+ in sometime now and have three rolls of 120 film to play with. We had a beautiful fresh snowfall and I'm going out tomorrow to take advantage of it. I plan on rating the HP5+ at 320 and developing one roll in Claytons F76+ and another roll in Pyrocat-MC. That leaves one roll for another developer. Any suggestions? I also have available to use, at the moment, Pyrocat-HD, FX37, Beutler HD, Perceptol, homebrewed Microdol, Rodinal/Adonal and WD2D+ pyro. Plus, the chemicals to make others, but figure these should be enough to choose from. I know I should test, but I only have three rolls and a short time frame for the fresh snow. JW

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You should start a retail store, John! So much to choose from.

I've been using HP5+ for a while now as my standard film, and I process in good old D76 1+1 for the most part, which has worked a treat. Why not run two rolls in F76+ or Pyrocat, so that you can start getting a feel for the combination at hand?

Snow scenes are more about metering correctly. Developer choice - well, you know my standpoint that technique outweighs the benefit of any particular developer, and you can have almost any result you want if you apply yourself.

JW PHOTO said:

I haven't shot any HP5+ in sometime now and have three rolls of 120 film to play with. We had a beautiful fresh snowfall and I'm going out tomorrow to take advantage of it. I plan on rating the HP5+ at 320 and developing one roll in Claytons F76+ and another roll in Pyrocat-MC. That leaves one roll for another developer. Any suggestions? I also have available to use, at the moment, Pyrocat-HD, FX37, Beutler HD, Perceptol, homebrewed Microdol, Rodinal/Adonal and WD2D+ pyro. Plus, the chemicals to make others, but figure these should be enough to choose from. I know I should test, but I only have three rolls and a short time frame for the fresh snow. JW

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I just shot a couple of rolls of HP5+ rated at 200 and developed them in D23 1+3. Shadows detail is full and the snow looks great. Having said that I've also found that HP5+ and Pyrocat HD are a fine match and will get you slightly more speed. Good luck!
Shawn

Tom & Shawn,
I think I'll run a roll in the F76+ and Pyrocat-MC and hold the third roll back until I see what I get from those two. The films I've developed so far in F76+ seem to come out best only slightly down-rated and I had to cut the developing times back by about 10%. That's just my processing style of course and my using condenser enlargement. So, it's going to be an E.I. of 320 for both and some careful metering. Tom, I know that's a lot of developers, but the Pyrocat's and WD2D+ are long term and I've had them awhile, the Perceptol was some old stock I just mixed, the FX37 I use with T-grain films and like it. The F76+ I bought to see if I liked it and to help my grandkiddies get started in the darkroom as it would be quick and easy for them.. The rest I don't really use and just mixed to play with.

Snow photography.... not always easy.....all about metering and those tricky shadows and highlights, and keeping contrast at bay etc

If its a 'golden' shot as they say I would personally always bracket 3 each way

at meter then 1/2 stop down x 3 and 1/2 stop up x 3 ( 1.5 stops up and down )

And before anybody rightly says thats a waste of film, and an unnecessary expense I agree and I would only ever recommend it for an 'amazing' shot and would much rather that you save your film...and certainly not on sheet film !

But....

No substitute for a great and 'spot on' neg, never has been and never will be...and snow ain't easy

and of course I do not ever forget I'm a very lucky boy...film wise

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Simon R Galley said:

Snow photography.... not always easy.....all about metering and those tricky shadows and highlights, and keeping contrast at bay etc

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Precisely. Any film/developer will be fine for snow, if it is exposed, developed and printed with the conditions in mind and some degree of forethought (e.g., previsualization) as to the desired result. The Zone System of exposure and development is a great asset in portraying snow to achieving your visualization in the final print. It is in no way dependent upon any particular film or developer. It is absolute nonsense that one film or developer is better than another, except as regards resolving some parts of the composition as desired to be portrayed by the photographer.

For instance, the images graciously provided as examples earlier in this thread, show almost no texture in the snow itself, which since it occupies a great deal of the compositions, may be assumed to be important. As such, they put me more in the mind of the harsh, dreariness of snow, even in full sun, than its beauty. One can only assume that, if the prints are not significantly different than the scanned images presented in this regard, this was the photographic artist's intent.

It's all about choices in shooting snow, where to place your values. The ZS allows you to decide, given the limited range of translatable light values to your film, where texture can be shown and where it might be sacrificed, per your composition. Attempting to stretch that range, is where contracted development comes in to play in terms of holding shadows.


Old Snow:


New Snow:

ROL said:

Precisely. Any film/developer will be fine for snow, if it is exposed, developed and printed with the conditions in mind and some degree of forethought (e.g., previsualization) as to the desired result. The Zone System of exposure and development is a great asset in portraying snow to achieving your visualization in the final print. It is in no way dependent upon any particular film or developer. It is absolute nonsense that one film or developer is better than another, except as regards resolving some parts of the composition as desired to be portrayed by the photographer.

For instance, the images graciously provided as examples earlier in this thread, show almost no texture in the snow itself, which since it occupies a great deal of the compositions, may be assumed to be important. As such, they put me more in the mind of the harsh, dreariness of snow, even in full sun, than its beauty. One can only assume that, if the prints are not significantly different than the scanned images presented in this regard, this was the photographic artist's intent.

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ROL, you are right about snow being the main portion of the scene, but that first image of the small store is exactly what I would see on a dull, lifeless winter day here in Michigan where I live. On those sunless days with no cross lighting and everything defused it's almost impossible to get texture in the snow at all. On my monitor I do see lines in the roof of the store, which leads me to believe the exposure was pretty darn close. No sun - dull - dark day = dull, sulky snow scenes. At least where I come from anyway. Also, like you say, we haven't seen the prints. JW

Simon R Galley said:

Snow photography.... not always easy.....all about metering and those tricky shadows and highlights, and keeping contrast at bay etc

If its a 'golden' shot as they say I would personally always bracket 3 each way

at meter then 1/2 stop down x 3 and 1/2 stop up x 3 ( 1.5 stops up and down )

And before anybody rightly says thats a waste of film, and an unnecessary expense I agree and I would only ever recommend it for an 'amazing' shot and would much rather that you save your film...and certainly not on sheet film !

But....

No substitute for a great and 'spot on' neg, never has been and never will be...and snow ain't easy

and of course I do not ever forget I'm a very lucky boy...film wise

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Click to expand...

Yes Simon, I wish I had your film problem! If it's a worthy shot I always bracket to be on the safe side, but only 1/2 stop each way. I guess I'm a tight Hollander, which I am. JW

I've used HP5+ and pyrocat-hd from 35mm to 8x10 for years. Great combination.

Simon R Galley said:

And before anybody rightly says thats a waste of film, and an unnecessary expense I agree.......

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Unless you knew of a plentiful supply of film!!


Steve.

Staining pyro developers make it a lot easier to hold crisp detail and tonal gradation up in the sparkly highlights.

DREW WILEY said:

Staining pyro developers make it a lot easier to hold crisp detail and tonal gradation up in the sparkly highlights.

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Drew,
Last week I shot a roll of Foma/Arista EDU 200 on a beautiful sunny/bright day and developed it in WD2D+. They came out very nice, but I just could not see "sparkle" on the snow. The snow had really well seen texture, but seemed to lack sparkle. The thing is that I could actually see the sparkle on the snow from the suns reflection, but it did not come through on the film. Maybe WD2D+ just held the highlights back a touch to much. It was only the second roll of Foma 200 I ran through WD2D+. I look for a little more of that sparkle with HP5+ and hope I get it. Well, the sun is now high and bright and I'm, heading out in it. JW

JW PHOTO said:

...The snow had really well seen texture, but seemed to lack sparkle. The thing is that I could actually see the sparkle on the snow from the suns reflection, but it did not come through on the film. Maybe WD2D+ just held the highlights back a touch to much...

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You are really barking up the wrong tree here, but by all means carry on

Sorry, but WD2D family of developers is not one I have personal experience with. I have used a number of staining pyros, but tend to standardize on PMK, which I like for everything except rotary drum use, and have used for contrasty scenes in all kinds of films and formats.
The only film it didn't work well was is the now-obsolete TechPan. Correct metering is important, but going beyond the general parameters
described so far, it is worth noting that snow in open sun is amenable to bringing out the texture using filters, since all those little nooks and
crannies essentially contain blue shadows under open sky conditions. So anything from a light yellow-green or orange clear up to a deep red
filter can be selected to increase the sense of texture. Of course, snow itself varies between fresh and powdery and flatter when settled.
And the angle of the sun if a factor too. When its fresh, I always prefer getting around on snowshoes rather than skis because it is easier to
tamp down a good tripod platform and approach subjects closer up.

-After 20 years of try any combination of film and developer and also home made chemicals, i stick with trix 400 and HC110, which i like and with HP5 film. In that case i expose the HP5 (120) as 250ASA and develop for 6min in 1:30 dilute B. The tonality of that combo is great from deep black to white, just the trix have a better roll off in high light. Any way never i like so much the HP5, is to flat for me as all the ilford film and paper, but now we don't have many choose. Ahhh i miss those agfa with rodinal...

-I am sorry for my second post in a row but i have to say that the most important is how to print the negatives. As all we now the details is still there in negatives but some times the density is over the combination of our papers, chemicals and printhead.
-So my solution for many years now is to print with color head which give about a one more zone in whites and also i use a Metol in the developer, a chemical developer that lower the contrast when i need it, ( i put a 5-10gr per litter), also i use baryta paper when the tonality is very critical.