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Ed_Davor

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Well, for example at BH photo

used Hasselblad kit, is about 2000-2500 dollars, while a new Mamiya kit can be as low as $1600

It kind of proves my point, good MF used gear is as expensive or even more expensive than new entry-level MF gear
 

Dave Parker

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Normally you will find the pro level gear is in better shape and more of a pleasure to use than the entry level gear. Of course the system you have cited in your example can be had for alot less money, B&H on gear tends to be one of the higher priced pre-owned sellers..And the Hassy New was considerably more money.

I would certainly not consider the Mamiya as an entry level system, it in its own right is a good workhorse pro system and many of us have used them for years with no problems.

When speaking about entry level MF gear, I always think of Seagul and such, if you buy a Mamiya, Hassy, Etc your not looking at a entry level gear selection.

I guess the point is, many of us here have and continue to purchase pre owned gear that serves us very well for a long time, but the only one that can say what is right for you, is of course you..

Good luck in your choice, there is lots to choose from out there..

Dave
 

cao

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RB-67s + 127c from KEH

Ed_Davor said:
Well, for example at BH photo

used Hasselblad kit, is about 2000-2500 dollars, while a new Mamiya kit can be as low as $1600

It kind of proves my point, good MF used gear is as expensive or even more expensive than new entry-level MF gear

I'm looking at KEH today, and they have an RB-67 ProS with the 90 F3.8 C lens in excellent condition for $567. I've shot this combo, but I bought a local wedding/seniors shooter's kit which is likely to be far rougher than the KEH item. This is nice gear, and while a bit heavy, it's built for the war, and the 127c and 90c are nice glass. The machinery in these cameras is tough as nails. If you get a good camera from KEH, you get one other thing denied you with that new camera smell, a product that's survived a shake down. That $1000 margin over the new Mamiya will buy a lot of film and, assuming you do your own film work and photofinishing, darkroom supplies. I don't want you to have a break-down either, and that's why I'd steer you towards the used but very tank-like RB67.

Here's a quick glimpse of the body and lens to show just how beefy the mechanics of this camera are.

Please note that I'm not recommending against Hasselblad or Bronica if you see a deal, but I've shot with the RB67, and I believe in its ruggedness, and I know there are good deals to be had from reputable vendors.
 
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Ed_Davor

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Satinsnow said:
I would certainly not consider the Mamiya as an entry level system, it in its own right is a good workhorse pro system and many of us have used them for years with no problems.

When speaking about entry level MF gear, I always think of Seagul and such, if you buy a Mamiya, Hassy, Etc your not looking at a entry level gear selection.



Dave

When I say "entry level" I mean entry to serious MF world, something you can use for pro work, or quality amateur work.
 

Dave Parker

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Ed_Davor said:
When I say "entry level" I mean entry to serious MF world, something you can use for pro work, or quality amateur work.

Ed,

I was just imparting information, ultimately, your the one that is going to have to figure out what works for you, anyway you go, I am sure you will be happy with the bigger negative the MF offers..

Looking forward to seeing your work in the future.

Dave
 
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Ed_Davor

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Well thank you..

It's going to be a while before I can buy something serious (be it used or new), but all it takes is a decision, and months of sacrifice. I'll probably have to stop shooting 35mm for a while to save some money.
 

André E.C.

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Ed_Davor said:
Well thank you..

It's going to be a while before I can buy something serious (be it used or new), but all it takes is a decision, and months of sacrifice. I'll probably have to stop shooting 35mm for a while to save some money.


What???????
Stop burning film for an upgrade, you got to be kidding?
Use what you have and stop thinking about in what you don`t!
Go make some images, mate:smile:.

Cheers

André
 
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Hi Ed,

As someone who has gotten into MF in the last year with a limited, very limited budget, I'm going to cheer you on in looking at the Yashica. I bought a Yashica Mat 124G and could not be happier with it for what I can afford right now. At this point, in about half a year, I've put over 50 rolls through it, and it takes 120 and 220. The metering is good as far as I can tell and when measured with my F100, and the accuracy has proven itself in the photos and results. It's easy enough to use, the glass is sharp, and the viewfinder is beautiful to work with and has a flip down loupe. It is a look down, reversed image though, so takes a little getting used to. I would say pick up one of these for 200 or so, use it and enjoy the new world of MF while saving up for the larger kits (what I'm working on now).
And as someone else said, its a slippery slope, it was only a matter of months before I wanted 4x5 LF which I'm now into, and already eyeing the 8x10s.

Hope this helps.
 

gnashings

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Ed, as Dave already mentioned, Mamiya gear is hardly "entry level". Hassys are wonderful - no doubt - but don't confuse name recognition and certain cache with quality or level of professionalism.
Ultimately, its your choice, and I would be a hypocrite if I didn't aknowledge the fact that to many of us, there is something to be said for getting the gear you want. After all, unless its purely a tool, you should be getting the equipment that will make you as happy to behold as it does to use.
Just don't make the mistake of equating price with level of quality in the most direct sense.
 
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Ed_Davor

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Ok, let's talk about lenses now...

Schneider, Tamron, Mamiya, and Zeiss


these are lenses used in modular MF systems (Rollei, Bronica, Mamiya, Hassy)

so..

In the mid range (around 80mm for 645, and equivalents for other 120 formats), how do all these compare in contrast, saturation, sharpness and resolution

The Mamiya 80mm lens is pretty cheap, is it bad?
How does it compare to equivalent lenses from other manufacturers?

Same question for wideangle lenses, who makes best wideangles out of the four?

any experiences, or common knowledge wellcome

thanks
 

Dave Parker

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My 80mm Mamiya lens is one of the best I have ever owned, good glass to say the least, Tamron does not make lenses for MF, of course Tamron and Bronica are tied together, but in my opinion the Mamiya glass is some of the best stuff going, with the state of the camera business, you really need to get off price and get into equipment, now a days a good buy, may provide every single thing your looking for.

Dave
 

Daniel Lawton

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I agree with Dave about the 80mm "standard" lens. Just like 50 mm lens for 35mm cameras, standard lenses across the board are incredibly sharp and cheap because they more closely match the dimensions of the film area and are relatively easy to engineer and correct for distortion. The focal length is also very versatile depending on your shooting style so you can't go wrong starting out with one of them when building your system.
 

redrockcoulee

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Ed

Do you even know which format of medium format you want? Twenty five years ago I traded a broken motorcycle for an old wooden desk and two bikes one of which I then traded for a Rolleichord. Love the square format and that camera although it is now close to 40 years old and I am the third owner has never been a problem. Previous jobs I have used a Mamiya 645 and although it is a SLR and interchangeable lens never liked the rectangular format quite as well as the square one. Last year got into 4X5 and it acutally increased the amount I use the Rollei as some images I definely want in that square format. There is 645, 66, 67 69 etc
If you buy an inexpensive camera and do not like it , you could give it away to the Sally Ann mail it to me :smile: or whatever and still lose less than if you bought new and sold it shortly after purchasing. And if you do buy something like a Yashicamat or Rolleichord and decide you like the medium format , you may just want to keep the camera as an easy carrier or for more candid shots.
That wooden desk turned out to be mahogeny covered in dull brown paint and the bike was a high end Italian racer that just got retired as I needed a granny gear. The Rolleichord will last me forever and as long as their is film available I will use it, regardless of what other format or camera I own or have access to.
If you just do not like buying used stuff that is another matter but if you want to try medium format some of these cameras are cheaper than even renting a "professional" one for a weekend.
 
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Ed_Davor

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Daniel Lawton said:
I agree with Dave about the 80mm "standard" lens. Just like 50 mm lens for 35mm cameras, standard lenses across the board are incredibly sharp and cheap because they more closely match the dimensions of the film area and are relatively easy to engineer and correct for distortion. The focal length is also very versatile depending on your shooting style so you can't go wrong starting out with one of them when building your system.

Ok, just to confirm this

I'm talking about The Sekor C f2.8/ 80mm N lense. It costs about $250 new. Is this the same lens we are talking about?

How does this lens compare to say Schneider 80mm lens or Zeiss 80mm lens for Hasselblad?
 

Dave Parker

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Ed,

I am going to throw this out there......but buddy you are overthinking this....really you are, your going to be happy with the Schneider, the Zeiss or the Mamiya..

The more we talk about it, means less time shooting!

You never going to find the perfect solution, but I bet, you will find something that works for you and that is the most important thing..

You need to get out and shoot...

Dave
 
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Ed_Davor

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Satinsnow said:
Ed,

I am going to throw this out there......but buddy you are overthinking this....really you are, your going to be happy with the Schneider, the Zeiss or the Mamiya..

The more we talk about it, means less time shooting!

You never going to find the perfect solution, but I bet, you will find something that works for you and that is the most important thing..

You need to get out and shoot...

Dave

I've got all the time in the world to talk, In fact, from now on, that's all I'll be doing regarding photography, talking. I've got to save every penny for this. :smile:

But I'd still like to know how things are in real world, in extreme magnifications, which lenses perform best in this range
 

Daniel Lawton

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Ed_Davor said:
Ok, just to confirm this

I'm talking about The Sekor C f2.8/ 80mm N lense. It costs about $250 new. Is this the same lens we are talking about?

How does this lens compare to say Schneider 80mm lens or Zeiss 80mm lens for Hasselblad?


Yes thats the one I'm refering to. I don't have experience with Schneider or Zeiss so I can't comment on that. Certain brands have a cult-like following but in terms of real world results you'd have a tough time telling the difference between any lens from a reputable manufacturer. Mamiya equipment has long been a workhorse for professionals so you won't be sacrificing quality if thats what you are wondering. When I make crappy photos, there are a myriad of reasons why and lens type or brand is usually pretty far down the list if it even registers at all.
 
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Ed_Davor

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thanks

now, about the formats..

What's the most popular format in MF photography?
I've read about a lot of big pros using 6x7 format..

In which professional fields is 645 most popular?
Same question for 67.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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645 is probably most popular for action, where you want more quality than you would get with 35mm, but you need something that only 35mm does really well, like long fast lenses.

6x6 is more handholdable than 6x7. Some people like the square format, especially for portraits. It's nice to have a camera that is always oriented in the same way.

6x7 is more amenable to print formats, the shape of a magazine page, popular for fashion and portraits. An RB/RZ 67 is a big chunky camera, easier to manage on a tripod than in the hand. A number of fashion shooters like the Pentax P67 because it's more like a 35mm camera. If you're a rangefinder shooter in 35mm, consider the Mamiya M7. The lenses are outstanding.

If you like something like the RB/RZ 67, you might also consider the Fuji GX680. Tom Sauerwein shoots one. It's an SLR with limited view camera movements.
 

cao

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No magic bullets here?

Ed_Davor said:
How does this lens compare to say Schneider 80mm lens or Zeiss 80mm lens for Hasselblad?

Ok. Let's try another tack. I often look at negatives with a 10X diamond grading loupe when checking sharpness and cleanliness. When I fail to get a sharp negative by this standard from the Mamiya 80/2.8S twin or 90/3.8C, it boils down do poor technique on my part. Now let's look at what that implies for enlargements. If the negative looks sharp at 10X, then a 6x4.5 would print sharply at 16x20", a 6x6 will make a good 20x20", and a 6x7 will print well at 20x24". These are huge expensive bits of paper, and cost as much per sheet as a whole roll of film. The point is that a good specimen of a lens for a common pro system, Mamiya RB or C twin for instance, will give you potential for crisp enlargments to very big and expensive paper sizes. To me, the main benefit is the bigger film produces smoother tones, and the fine detail is a nice side effect. I will make a not too wild guess and say that I suspect similarly sharp negatives could be obtained with any of the major professional medium format systems, and I've seen nicely crisp negatives out of a friend's Yashica D, but she's a good shooter who knows how to wring quality out of a camera, and there were no important details composed on the edges and the corners. What I'm saying in too many words perhaps is that by choosing a major brand MF camera with a normal lens, you are very very unlikely wind up with a camera incapable of delivering of sharp prints large enough to devour significant wall space unless the camera has been seriously abused. You do mean to take pictures, don't you? Then buy a solid used system, and start burning film. Your expertise with any system means more than Schneider vs Zeiss vs etc etc etc.
 

cao

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Blather

cao said:
Ok. Let's try another tack.

Gawd but I blather. Did I really say the same thing three times in that post? Gotta hire an editor!
 

MattKing

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Ed_Davor said:
I've got all the time in the world to talk, In fact, from now on, that's all I'll be doing regarding photography, talking. I've got to save every penny for this. :smile:

But I'd still like to know how things are in real world, in extreme magnifications, which lenses perform best in this range

Ed:

I have a Mamiya c330 TLR with 4 lenses (plus a backup C220 body). I have owned the C330 and the 80mm standard lens since the mid 1970s. It has been used for weddings, portraits, product shots, birthday parties, vacation photos, fun shots etc. - i.e. a wide variety of uses. For part of that time, I was doing a fair amount of (part-time) professional photography, while working as a printer in labs.

Recently I have purchased a fair amount of used Mamiya M645 equipment on eBay and through KEH.

If you had a chance to spend a lot of time and effort testing and familiarizing yourself with the following (assume all square format or 6x4.5):
1) a Mamiya TLR with a standard lens;
2) a Hassleblad with a standard lens;
3) a Rollie SLR with a standard lens;
4) a Bronica SLR with a standard lens;
5) a Mamiya M645 with a standard lens; or
6) a Rollieflex.

then you would notice some differences, but those diffferences would be suprisingly small.

Each of the cameras and lenses yield high quality, professional results. Each of the lens systems are different, and will have their own character, and therefore some may appeal to your taste more than others, but in terms of resolution, and technical quality, all of them can yield amazing results.

Where there are fundamental differences is in respect of handling and range and type of lenses and accessories. Each has their strengths. For example, the TLRs are quiet and very reasonable in cost, but they have limited or no choice in lenses, which tend not to have large maximum aperatures. Between the SLRs, a Hassleblad is more likely to have a leaf shutter in the lens than a Mamiya M645.

Within this range of choices, all have very high quality, so it is more important that the camera and system that you choose suits your style and preferred workflow. It is quite possible, for instance, that you will find the controls on one of the cameras to be intuitive, easy and comfortable for you to use, whereas on another you may find the controls to be unclear, awkward and uncomfortable to use.

Being of professional grade, with reasonable maintenance, all of them are capable of lasting for a very long time. Used professional cameras are seriously worth considering. In the current market, if you buy used and familiarize yourself with a camera, whether or not you find you like it, you can probably get your money back upon re-sale or, more likely, you can keep what you have as a very usable backup, and buy something newer too. In most cases, the interchangeability between older and newer models is excellent.

My Mamiya C330 and lenses were recently CLA'd - for the first time in over ten years, and only because I thought it time, not because I was experiencing any problems.

B & H does not provide a good source of comparison - their business model is out of date when it comes to pricing of used equipment (i.e. they are too expensive!).

IMHO you would gain much more benefit buying used sooner, at lower cost, and spending the time shooting then you will by waiting and buying new or used from B & H. When you are comfortable and experienced with a camera, you will no doubt want to buy more lenses and accessories, and you can always consider buying those new then.

Please don't think that I am disagreeing with those who suggest a Yashica TLR, or something similar. That too is a great way to start, and will give you a real exposure to the benefits of quality MF. Compared to the listed examples (excepting the Rollieflex, of course) it is however less flexible in terms of opportunities to expand.
 
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Ed_Davor

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cao said:
Ok. Let's try another tack. I often look at negatives with a 10X diamond grading loupe when checking sharpness and cleanliness. When I fail to get a sharp negative by this standard from the Mamiya 80/2.8S twin or 90/3.8C, it boils down do poor technique on my part. Now let's look at what that implies for enlargements. If the negative looks sharp at 10X, then a 6x4.5 would print sharply at 16x20", a 6x6 will make a good 20x20", and a 6x7 will print well at 20x24". These are huge expensive bits of paper, and cost as much per sheet as a whole roll of film. The point is that a good specimen of a lens for a common pro system, Mamiya RB or C twin for instance, will give you potential for crisp enlargments to very big and expensive paper sizes. To me, the main benefit is the bigger film produces smoother tones, and the fine detail is a nice side effect. I will make a not too wild guess and say that I suspect similarly sharp negatives could be obtained with any of the major professional medium format systems, and I've seen nicely crisp negatives out of a friend's Yashica D, but she's a good shooter who knows how to wring quality out of a camera, and there were no important details composed on the edges and the corners. What I'm saying in too many words perhaps is that by choosing a major brand MF camera with a normal lens, you are very very unlikely wind up with a camera incapable of delivering of sharp prints large enough to devour significant wall space unless the camera has been seriously abused. You do mean to take pictures, don't you? Then buy a solid used system, and start burning film. Your expertise with any system means more than Schneider vs Zeiss vs etc etc etc.

Yea, thanks, I think I have a general idea now.
 
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Ed_Davor

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I just got the local prices for RB67 and 645 pro TL...they are over the top.
It turns up I can get a Hasselblad 501 full kit for the same money of 645 proTL, which is insane, and makes me give up on any Mamiya equipment. I've I'm going to after anything, it's going to be a Hassy 501C
 
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