How would I test for this? (split grade printing, hype or real)

[Carnie Bob]

This is false. Some were not. Many great photographers never worked in a darkroom, especially photojournalists.

Currently I am printing a project for Larry Towell - Magnum photographer. I recently drove to his home in the country to have prints signed, Funny enough he has a professional style darkroom, editing room in his home and his wife
processed all he film and made proof prints and Larry would print his exhibition prints.
You may have some insight , as I agree not all great photographers are great printers, but in all cases they will work with those who can if they cannot.

 

[Pieter12]

There is no prize for doing things the hard way. Besides, contrast should not be manipulated very much at all, except when using different lenses that have markedly different flare characteristics. The main objective of B&W photography is not tones but interesting images.

Tell that to Lillian Baseman or Sarah Moon or the multitude of photographers who manipulate tones.
{moderator deletion in aid of forum civility}

 

[Augustus Caesar]

So, suppose you are photographing a track meet. What is important? The expressions of the contestants as they cross the finish line? Their grimaces as they throw the shot-put? The sweat rolling down their faces? Their tears of joy or disappointment? Yes, of course! Does it matter if the sun is in a bad location? No too much. You have no control over such things. Will the photo be more significant if you extensively manipulate the contrast? Probably not. Do you know what peak action is? Getting the moment when the runner breaks the tape at the finish line, for instance. The exact instant when a soccer player's foot is ready to kick the ball. The precise second when a receiver catches the ball. All these things matter most.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

*****These are not recommended by the manufacturers, and for good reason. Kodak (and others) has published extensive materials in the past on the best practices. It would make sense to study such materials than to repeat folklore about half-understood methods and techniques. Most workers do not even know how VC paper works.***

Not true , when Ilford Warmtone was introduced a select group of printers worldwide (myself included) were asked to make a selection of 5 different emulsions that Ilford was considering, we were asked to print and report back which colour of box we preferred after printing a negative on the five different papers. It turned out overwhelmingly we chose Ilford Warmtone which was the Red Box. At that time the selling point by Ilford was to be able to use different filters within the printing cycle to achieve a more refined image.
I have split printed from that timeline with every image, I use the low end filter to bring in delicate highlights and then with the high end filter I bring in the contrast. I have printed both single grade filter and double grade filter for over 45 years now for clients and can say in my world a single grade print cannot equal a split print.
This has been a long standing topic here and on other threads and IMO I think the experience level of the printer dictates which way they will proceed with the print.

You don't know how VC paper works. Ilford's paper is a combination of three different emulsions all having the same gradient. The three components are sensitized differently: blue; blue + mild green; blue + strong green. Using a strong magenta filter allows only blue light to pass, exposing all three components. So, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 three times equals 3, 6, 9, 12, 15. You can see how this would provide a steeper gradient than yellow only (which allows only green to pass), which means you get only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It doesn't matter how you expose it, if there is no burning or dodging. The effect is cumulative.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

You don't know how VC paper works. Ilford's paper is a combination of three different emulsions all having the same gradient. The three components are sensitized differently: blue; blue + mild green; blue + strong green. Using a strong magenta filter allows only blue light to pass, exposing all three components. So, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 three times equals 3, 6, 9, 12, 15. You can see how this would provide a steeper gradient than yellow only (which allows only green to pass), which means you get only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It doesn't matter how you expose it, if there is no burning or dodging. The effect is cumulative.

I think you will find that Bob knows how VC papers work

 

[markbau]

The problem with these discussions is that no one knows if we are talking about printing giving the whole print a hard and a soft exposure or if we are talking about burning and dodging with different filters. Printing with a colour head (combining Y and M) gives you the same result as the hard/soft routine. The only thing that hard/soft or colour heads can do that using the Ilford filters can't is get in between grades.

 

[Pieter12]

So, suppose you are photographing a track meet. What is important? The expressions of the contestants as they cross the finish line? Their grimaces as they throw the shot-put? The sweat rolling down their faces? Their tears of joy or disappointment? Yes, of course! Does it matter if the sun is in a bad location? No too much. You have no control over such things. Will the photo be more significant if you extensively manipulate the contrast? Probably not. Do you know what peak action is? Getting the moment when the runner breaks the tape at the finish line, for instance. The exact instant when a soccer player's foot is ready to kick the ball. The precise second when a receiver catches the ball. All these things matter most.

But dodging the winner’s face so you CAN see the expression makes it a better print.

 

[Carnie Bob]

You don't know how VC paper works. Ilford's paper is a combination of three different emulsions all having the same gradient. The three components are sensitized differently: blue; blue + mild green; blue + strong green. Using a strong magenta filter allows only blue light to pass, exposing all three components. So, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 three times equals 3, 6, 9, 12, 15. You can see how this would provide a steeper gradient than yellow only (which allows only green to pass), which means you get only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It doesn't matter how you expose it, if there is no burning or dodging. The effect is cumulative.

Well if you say so , I bow to the more experience you must have.

 

[Carnie Bob]

But dodging the winner’s face so you CAN see the expression makes it a better print.

What you can do with dodging and burning within each filter is a good point.

 

[chuckroast]

The problem with these discussions is that no one knows if we are talking about printing giving the whole print a hard and a soft exposure or if we are talking about burning and dodging with different filters. Printing with a colour head (combining Y and M) gives you the same result as the hard/soft routine. The only thing that hard/soft or colour heads can do that using the Ilford filters can't is get in between grades.

I don't think even that is entirely the case. I VC split print everything. I do this because I don't want a single contrast across the entire image (usually). I want to control local contrast, well ... locally. I do this by varying the ratio of soft light time to hard light time in each relevant portion of the print. For finer control, I use the intensity adjustment on my VC head (a Zone VI) for each of these exposures.

It's possible, I suppose, to use different fixed grade settings to dodge and burn various portions of the print, but I've found the full-on soft/hard light ratio approach much easier to do and entirely repeatable. Part of the issue here is that traditional Polycontrast and Ilford filters fade with time, and different VC heads have a differing opinion about what Grade 0,1,2,3 ... actually are AND that varies from paper to paper. By printing via the ratio method, I avoid thinking about grades, filters, and paper matching entirely.

This has also simplified my printing approach and how I see things. I haven't asked "what contrast do I want?" for decades. Instead, I read the print from the POV of "How do I want the highlights to look?", "How detail do I want in the shadows?", and "How do my mid tones looks?"

 

[Carnie Bob]

Back in the day before Ilford Warmtone , I remember graded papers , we would require to pre flash, have two developers soft and hard, hot water treatment, the list of silver bullets was long. Split Printing was a remarkable to for those
of us who make a living printing for others .
who remembers the monster burn time in the highlight regions if one used a grade 3 or 4 paper . The highlights would be muddy and soft due to extensive burning.

This kind of work was needed for any image captured with a 1:5 or higher original scene, even with the most precise exposure and development.. I would never want to go back to those days with limited and noneffective solutions.

 

[chuckroast]

Back in the day before Ilford Warmtone , I remember graded papers , we would require to pre flash, have two developers soft and hard, hot water treatment, the list of silver bullets was long. Split Printing was a remarkable to for those
of us who make a living printing for others .
who remembers the monster burn time in the highlight regions if one used a grade 3 or 4 paper . The highlights would be muddy and soft due to extensive burning.

This kind of work was needed for any image captured with a 1:5 or higher original scene, even with the most precise exposure and development.. I would never want to go back to those days with limited and noneffective solutions.

Mods! Make @Carnie Bob staaaaaap. It's giving me printer's PTSD. Oh the humanity! The many chemical concoctions, the Benzotriazole, the Potassium Bromide, the heaters in the developer ....

Thanks Bob. Thanks a lot...

 

[Milpool]

The answer to the original question isn’t complicated. Unless there are localized exposure adjustments during hard/soft exposures, splitting a base exposure into two at min/max contrast doesn’t do anything a single base exposure at an intermediate contrast doesn’t. Do whichever you find more intuitive.

 

[Pieter12]

As I and a previous poster have mentioned, the utility of split-grade printing beyond fractional grades, is the fact that one does not have to make further tests (or guesses) to determine the proper overall contrast grade for the print. Obviously, selective grade dodging and burning can be done in conjunction with single or split-grade printing. But even then, it is easier to determine the grade and time for dodging and burning with split-grade printing, especially if you use f-stop timing.

 

[GregY]

As I and a previous poster have mentioned, the utility of split-grade printing beyond fractional grades, is the fact that one does not have to make further tests (or guesses) to determine the proper overall contrast grade for the print. Obviously, selective grade dodging and burning can be done in conjunction with single or split-grade printing. But even then, it is easier to determine the grade and time for dodging and burning with split-grade printing, especially if you use f-stop timing.

Pieter, not to flog a dead horse, but whatever one is used to, is easier I have both a 4x5 Zone VI VC head and a colorhead on a bigger Durst 138. I don't find split grade printing any better or quicker.....& I'm not about to buy f stop timers for my enlargers.

 

[Pieter12]

Pieter, not to flog a dead horse, but whatever one is used to, is easier I have both a 4x5 Zone VI VC head and a colorhead on a bigger Durst 138. I don't find split grade printing any better or quicker.....& I'm not about to buy f stop timers for my enlargers.

So how do you determine the contrast grade?

 

[GregY]

So how do you determine the contrast grade?

By looking at the negative & also by judging the contrast shown on the test strips...(i don't use tiny strip, but choose representative sections of the image).

 

[Pieter12]

By looking at the negative & also by judging the contrast shown on the test strips...(i don't use tiny strip, but choose representative sections of the image).

Test strips of different contrast grades?

 

[GregY]

Test strips of different contrast grades?

No..... i judge what the contrast looks like on the test strip (for the right time)....& then make adjustments.
It's interesting to me that many of those who split-print are the loudest proponents for their method.....like the evangelists who come knocking at your door....

 

[Pieter12]

No..... i judge what the contrast looks like on the test strip (for the right time)....& then make adjustments.
It's interesting to me that many of those who split-print are the loudest proponents for their method.....like the evangelists who come knocking at your door.... View attachment 368654

Maybe because those who haven't mastered split-grade printing seem to doubt there is any merit to it, as suggested by the title of this thread. You can print any way you want to. I learned split-grade printing early on when I returned to the darkroom and I only print that way now. My prints have been admired by museum curators who have seen them, as well as gallerists. (They still haven't given me a show or acquired any yet, damn it!) And I never have to guess (or judge if you prefer) at the contrast grade, it is determined by the initial set of test strips that I use to set the exposure times. To each his own.

 

[chuckroast]

Maybe because those who haven't mastered split-grade printing seem to doubt there is any merit to it, as suggested by the title of this thread. You can print any way you want to. I learned split-grade printing early on when I returned to the darkroom and I only print that way now. My prints have been admired by museum curators who have seen them, as well as gallerists. (They still haven't given me a show or acquired any yet, damn it!) And I never have to guess (or judge if you prefer) at the contrast grade, it is determined by the initial set of test strips that I use to set the exposure times. To each his own.

Exactly right. Selecting printing grade is a leftover from the graded paper days when you had one and only one choice of grade for the entire print. VC paper and continuously variable enlarging heads opened up a whole new world of print tuning.

These days, when I print 8x10 workbook prints, I don't even do test strips anymore. I eyeball the negative and pick a first printing time with full hard and soft light on to create an initial image. From then on, it's refinement based on, what do the highlights need, what do the shadows need, what does the local contrast in the midtones need.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Back in the day before Ilford Warmtone , I remember graded papers , we would require to pre flash, have two developers soft and hard, hot water treatment, the list of silver bullets was long. Split Printing was a remarkable to for those
of us who make a living printing for others .
who remembers the monster burn time in the highlight regions if one used a grade 3 or 4 paper . The highlights would be muddy and soft due to extensive burning.

This kind of work was needed for any image captured with a 1:5 or higher original scene, even with the most precise exposure and development.. I would never want to go back to those days with limited and noneffective solutions.

I remember trying to make a print on Agfa Brovira with a negative that printed beautifully on DuPont Velour Black #3, which had been discontinued. Could not do it. Highlights would not print right. Too light. I tried several grades. No luck. Finally found that Ilfobrom #3 was as good as the DuPont. But it too is now gone.

 

[GregY]

Exactly right. Selecting printing grade is a leftover from the graded paper days when you had one and only one choice of grade for the entire print. VC paper and continuously variable enlarging heads opened up a whole new world of print tuning.

These days, when I print 8x10 workbook prints, I don't even do test strips anymore. I eyeball the negative and pick a first printing time with full hard and soft light on to create an initial image. From then on, it's refinement based on, what do the highlights need, what do the shadows need, what does the local contrast in the midtones need.

Chuck, according to my understanding, that is not split grade printing. According to the instructions for the Zone VI head, if you have both green & blue lights on..... that's approximately Grade 2.
Here's the quote:

"There is also a subtractive method that may have appeal because only one knob is used. Start off by setting both lights to maximum and you will get about a grade 2. By cutting back on the soft, you will get a grade 3. (By turning off the soft, you will get a grade 4 . By cutting back on the hard, you will get a grade .1 (By turning off the hard, you will get grade 0)"

 

[GregY]

Maybe because those who haven't mastered split-grade printing seem to doubt there is any merit to it, as suggested by the title of this thread. You can print any way you want to. I learned split-grade printing early on when I returned to the darkroom and I only print that way now. My prints have been admired by museum curators who have seen them, as well as gallerists. (They still haven't given me a show or acquired any yet, damn it!) And I never have to guess (or judge if you prefer) at the contrast grade, it is determined by the initial set of test strips that I use to set the exposure times. To each his own.

Pieter you definitely have an opinion about our printing skills and how yours is superior. It might surprise you that just because we choose a different work flow or process, doesn't make it inferior to yours.
{Moderator deletion of parts leading to argument}

 

[Pieter12]

Pieter you definitely have an opinion about our printing skills and how yours is superior. It might surprise you that just because we choose a different work flow or process, doesn't make it inferior to yours.

... I am not saying my way or my prints are any better than anyone else’s. Just saying this is how I work and the results are good. .....
{Moderator deletion of parts leading to argument}