How will AI affect "making" versus "taking" photo's?

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warden

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That's what they said about photography in the 19th C, that a "camera" is a machine and therefor can't produce "art." We now know that it's the photographer not the tool that make the art. I'm not sure how this is different from the artistic skills and intent of the programmer who tells the computer what to do.

I think that’s where we are developmentally, actually, a 19th century understanding of what AI is and does, and the predictable push-back against it because of fear. And as more people come to understand it and use it productively and ethically it will be embraced for what it can do and rejected for what it can’t.

Presently it’s clumsy at making art. I stayed in a high-end hotel in Manhattan last week and I’m kicking myself for not taking pics of the room, because it had exclusively AI art on the walls and it was initially impressive, but on closer inspection, NOT.
 
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That's what they said about photography in the 19th C, that a "camera" is a machine and therefor can't produce "art." We now know that it's the photographer not the tool that make the art. I'm not sure how this is different from the artistic skills and intent of the programmer who tells the computer what to do.

A camera cannot take a picture without a human deciding where and when the shutter is snapped. So, the art is from the human, not the camera. However, AI, on its own, using some formula without human input, would be catastrophic when applied to existential issues like war, execution, and other moral determinants. Do we really want a machine, essentially using an Excel summary sheet, to make decisions about these issues?
 

MattKing

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A camera cannot take a picture without a human deciding where and when the shutter is snapped. So, the art is from the human, not the camera. However, AI, on its own, using some formula without human input, would be catastrophic when applied to existential issues like war, execution, and other moral determinants. Do we really want a machine, essentially using an Excel summary sheet, to make decisions about these issues?

I expect AI is making great inroads in the world of surveillance and security cameras - both with respect to when they are turned on, and how the information stored is analyzed.
 

koraks

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Medical imaging is a similarly promising area. Early stage detection of certain cancers dor instance is consistently and significantly more reliable with AI. But that doesn't change the fact that there certainly are grave ethical issues associated with the technology. When it comes to warfare, for instance, we see these actually play out on the battlefield already.
 

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A camera cannot take a picture without a human deciding where and when the shutter is snapped. So, the art is from the human, not the camera. However, AI, on its own, using some formula without human input, would be catastrophic when applied to existential issues like war, execution, and other moral determinants. Do we really want a machine, essentially using an Excel summary sheet, to make decisions about these issues?

But you're making these arguments in the context of "dumb" AI, LLMs and whatnot. What if the machinery of the brain is eventually understood, and can be built? Of course that still doesn't fix everything unless that AI experiences things for itself over time the way a brain does, but that still would not constitute a fundamental difference between the machines.
 

koraks

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the machinery of the brain

The misunderstanding is quite deeply embedded as this quote demonstrates.

The brain is not a machine as such. And it's extremely unlikely that we'll ever understand how it works if we consider it as distinct system. It really isn't. The nervous system is deeply integrated with the rest of our biological makeup and functions. And that's only the biophysical aspect of the matter.
 

Milpool

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The misunderstanding is quite deeply embedded as this quote demonstrates.

The brain is not a machine as such. And it's extremely unlikely that we'll ever understand how it works if we consider it as distinct system. It really isn't. The nervous system is deeply integrated with the rest of our biological makeup and functions. And that's only the biophysical aspect of the matter.

That is a view, not a "settled" matter. There is complexity and integration and at the bottom are things which are not beyond physical law. There are those who think the nervous system is fundamentally more than input and computation, and others as credible who don't. The practical aspects of constructing such a machine are not what I'm interested in, but rather whether or not in principle there is a difference.
 

MattKing

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In a past life I did sometimes represent in Court teenagers accused of breaching the law.
Any attempts to understand how the brain works need to first address their mind to how the teenage brain works, before they can come to any decision on how the brain functions!
 

koraks

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That is a view, not a "settled" matter.

The interactive complexity of the brain, the nervous system in general and the other tissues of the body really is a settled matter. For as long as mankind has studied its grey matter, it has observed that it didn't exist in the isolation of a petri dish.

None of what I said suggests that the nervous system wouldn't behave in accordance of the human construct of 'physical laws'. Of course it does. The (human) acceptance of these laws is in the end an empirical matter. We base it on study of our environment. Evidently, there's no magic at work - although the sense of magic is an interesting aspect of the human experience I'd challenge your thought experiment with. Speaking of that thought experiment - I don't see the merit to it. The whole essence is in the practical question of feasibility and the phenomena we'd observe if we could make it work. Would the actual machine (AI) develop consciousness? If so, how would we be able to observe it? Will it have an identity and the ability to reflect? If so, how will we recognize it, and how will these things be different from ours? Will the machine invent a god? We know the present generation of AI 'hallucinates' - but that, again, is a human construct. As far as we can tell so far, the machine doesn't believe anything. Heck, we don't even begin to understand what 'believing' constitutes.

And that's only the stuff that's happening on the inside - although arguable, all of it is by necessity (at least in the case of the human brain) emergent also on the basis of interactions with the environment.

What your mechanistic outset simply doesn't acknowledge or probably even allow is the myriad ways in which the human physiology, and by extension its neurology and ultimately psychology, only resemble 'machines' very superficially. When it comes to AI as an attempt to recreate that hypothetical 'machine', it has only so far explored the very basic mechanisms - the idea of an input/output system, a set of interconnected action centers (neurons) and a way these can be reconfigured. For one thing, we still do this in deterministic binary space, and we don't even know if that's a suitable way to model what happens in biological neural networks. We don't even know at this point whether those extremely fuzzy, abstract and high-level phenomena as I've mentioned above can emerge merely from the interactive complexity within a basically deterministic mechanism like a computer-based neural network.

The problem is that we're trying to model the Mona Lisa using Lego bricks, in the assumption that if you take a sufficient number of Legoes that are sufficiently small and arrange them in the right pattern, you should be able to recreate the painting. It's questionable if that's true. The odds are that we haven't developed the language or concepts yet that allows us to model this supposed 'machine'. Yet, hubris makes us believe that we're totally brilliant with our box of Legoes. Or at least, some of us think so.

We've not as much as scratched the surface.
 

nikos79

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I work a lot with traditional AI but also with Biological Inspired AI (Human Brain Simulation).
The basic issue with the human brain and why we cannot replicate it is that it is "immersed" into the physical reality, there is no such thing as a brain in a vacuum.
I have a radical stance on that. The moment an AI can become conscious and also feel "death" then it can create real art.
 

koraks

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"What makes a man, Mr. Lebowski?
[...]
Is it being prepared to do the right thing? Whatever the cost? Isn’t that that makes a man? "
"Ummm..sure. That and a pair of testicles."
 
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I expect AI is making great inroads in the world of surveillance and security cameras - both with respect to when they are turned on, and how the information stored is analyzed.

Shooting pictures of license plates at unmanned toll booths as cars go by doesn't seem like art. On the other hand, who was it who shot and painted all those Campbell Soup cans?
 
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But you're making these arguments in the context of "dumb" AI, LLMs and whatnot. What if the machinery of the brain is eventually understood, and can be built? Of course that still doesn't fix everything unless that AI experiences things for itself over time the way a brain does, but that still would not constitute a fundamental difference between the machines.

The first question is whether we want machines to be making life and death decisions about other people's lives in war and legal judgments?
 
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I work a lot with traditional AI but also with Biological Inspired AI (Human Brain Simulation).
The basic issue with the human brain and why we cannot replicate it is that it is "immersed" into the physical reality, there is no such thing as a brain in a vacuum.
I have a radical stance on that. The moment an AI can become conscious and also feel "death" then it can create real art.

It can't happen. We're not God.
 

MattKing

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warden

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The first question is whether we want machines to be making life and death decisions about other people's lives in war and legal judgments?

I like where your imagination is headed here, Alan. And yes I used Ai to make this image. 😝


1753398154831.png
 
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