How to use Positive Film as black and white

mohmad khatab · Sep 15, 2021

Hello my dear colleagues. Greetings to all .
Please help me understand this.
These films will be distributed to some new amateur youth during a filming tour that I will supervise in Al-Ahram in order to train the new youth.

I found a large amount of films in a large and old laboratory in Cairo, and this was for a laboratory specialized only in developing Positive films, which had huge machines and so on.
And of course he has some of his Positive Films stock from the 80s, in a hot and poorly stocked place,
But unfortunately, I tried a lot to shoot those films on the basis that they were positiv and I made attempts to develop them (E6), but unfortunately we did not get any result at all,
- I only developed one roll (C41) and the results were not good in strange colors,
- Conclusion :
I want to use these films as black and white films.
I want some advice on this.
Four ISO 100 films and there is only one 400
Do I consider all of them ISO 25 or what.?
- Regarding development
I was thinking of using Rodinal,
Does anyone have an idea of the time and percentage of dilution that will go with this coin.?
I was thinking of developing some Agfascala films but I am not sure this old emulsion might not withstand this process.
I'm reall
We have these rolls that are expired since the year 80.. We want to produce a black and white image from those films. How do we photograph it? How do we develop it?

y a little confused

I thank you all in advance,

Rudeofus · Sep 16, 2021

The Kodak E100G films were introduced in 2003, therefore these rolls can not even be 20 years old. They should work almost like fresh rolls, unless they were stored in high heat. Is the Fuji Sensia just "Sensia", or "Sensia II" ? If it id Sensia II, then it also is no older than 25 years. The Sensia 400 film may show worse signs of age due to its higher film speed. I would process this one only after successfully processing the previous ones.

Some slide films use a silver layer to protect them against stray light. If you process them in E-6 or C-41, everything is fine, because the bleach step removes this silver layer. If you process this film in regular black&white developer, that silver layer will remain in place and you end up with very dark film strips.

If you process these films in E-6 developer, you should overexpose these films by at most half a stop, i.e. EI 80. You say "we did not get any result at all", where the strips blank or very dark?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Rudeofus said:
The Kodak E100G films were introduced in 2003, therefore these rolls can not even be 20 years old. They should work almost like fresh rolls, unless they were stored in high heat. Is the Fuji Sensia just "Sensia", or "Sensia II" ? If it id Sensia II, then it also is no older than 25 years. The Sensia 400 film may show worse signs of age due to its higher film speed. I would process this one only after successfully processing the previous ones.

Some slide films use a silver layer to protect them against stray light. If you process them in E-6 or C-41, everything is fine, because the bleach step removes this silver layer. If you process this film in regular black&white developer, that silver layer will remain in place and you end up with very dark film strips.

If you process these films in E-6 developer, you should overexpose these films by at most half a stop, i.e. EI 80. You say "we did not get any result at all", where the strips blank or very dark?

Yes, all of those films have repeatedly tried to develop them according to the process (E6), but they come out as a transparent tape that does not carry any image at all.
It was developed according to (C41), and pictures came out, but in strange and unacceptable colors.
- Now we only want one thing, we want to portray these films as if they were black and white films, and we want to have a black and white image only,
How can it be photographed?
How can it be developed?

AgX · Sep 16, 2021

Rudeofus said:
Some slide films use a silver layer to protect them against stray light. If you process them in E-6 or C-41, everything is fine, because the bleach step removes this silver layer. If you process this film in regular black&white developer, that silver layer will remain in place and you end up with very dark film strips.

Colour films use a filter layer to divert the blue sensitive layer from the rest of the tri-layer stack. If this layer is not bleached in some way in B&W processing, be it it dye or silver based, this will affect printing from the resulting B&W negative.

Donald Qualls · Sep 16, 2021

Clear film after E6 process strongly suggests bad color developer.

Rudeofus · Sep 16, 2021

Can you show me scans of these rolls processed in C-41 chemistry?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Rudeofus said:
Can you show me scans of these rolls processed in C-41 chemistry?

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 16, 2021

Those examples actually look really cool...except for the scan lines.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

AgX said:
Colour films use a filter layer to divert the blue sensitive layer from the rest of the tri-layer stack. If this layer is not bleached in some way in B&W processing, be it it dye or silver based, this will affect printing from the resulting B&W negative.

Printing is not my priority.
I just want to take advantage of this amount of films in order to train young amateur photographers.
I want to have a black and white stripe of natural negative.
I have many black and white developers.
Calogen
Rodinal
, FX1
What do I have to do?
Do I shoot at box speed?
What are the development options?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
Those examples actually look really cool...except for the scan lines.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
It depends on different cultures.
What is acceptable according to the culture of Canada is not acceptable according to the culture of Egypt.
If you like these results, I can give you one of these films when you visit Egypt.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Clear film after E6 process strongly suggests bad color developer.

Brother: Donald Qualls
I don't understand your point, may you explain to me in more detail what you mean?

Donald Qualls · Sep 16, 2021

With E6 process, bad first developer will give black film, because the fog/redevelop will develop all the halide. Bad bleach will give black film with (sometimes) very faint color ghosts, because the developed silver will be left in the emulsion. Bad fixer will give milky halide with superposed color images (usually just the top layer will be visible, though you can sometimes see all colors with light behind the film).

Only bad color developer (or fogging failure) will produce completely blank film with either C-41 or E-6 films -- or else getting the chemicals out of order, of course.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 16, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
It depends on different cultures.
What is acceptable according to the culture of Canada is not acceptable according to the culture of Egypt.
If you like these results, I can give you one of these films when you visit Egypt.

How has this got anything to do with culture other than the subjects appear to be Egyptian?? If this is against your culture, then so are most images shot with a Holga, pinhole camera, jnantz's work...

Ivo Stunga · Sep 16, 2021

Try a different place to develop your E-6 for color?
Or you can always try BW Reversal - works on C-41 and E-6 films too if you want BW positives instead of beautiful colors. And this will give what you want: black and white positives with everything bleached away what needed to be bleached away. It needs to have a bleaching stage.

All that generalisation on Egyptian culture made me cringe, though. Who are you to claim to represent each and every Egyptian individual, whayt he deems acceptable or not. Are you a nation of clones?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
How has this got anything to do with culture other than the subjects appear to be Egyptian?? If this is against your culture, then so are most images shot with a Holga, pinhole camera, jnantz's work...

What I mean here, my friend, is the culture of vision.
You saw those pictures and you said they looked pretty acceptable.
But most of the Egyptians' opinions are that they are horrific and totally unacceptable.
Therefore, I was thinking of resorting to a black and white image, as it is without colors and would be acceptable in most cases.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Ivo Stunga said:
Try a different place to develop your E-6 for color?
Or you can always try BW Reversal - works on C-41 and E-6 films too if you want BW positives instead of beautiful colors. And this will give what you want: black and white positives with everything bleached away what needed to be bleached away. It needs to have a bleaching stage.

All that generalisation on Egyptian culture made me cringe, though. Who are you to claim to represent each and every Egyptian individual, whayt he deems acceptable or not. Are you a nation of clones?

What do you sing with that phrase? Are you a nation of clones
Of course, I do not represent all Egyptians.
But I represent a large sector of the Egyptian analog community, and I feel the general taste among the members of this community as I am one of them, and I develop their films and sell chemistry to them sometimes, so I know what they like and what they don't like.
The development of this film with chemistry (C41) produced images with colors that were not acceptable to a large segment of the Egyptian analog community.
So I wanted to escape from that dilemma and go to the black and white world, which is the safer way.
- I thought about the process (Agfascala), but I'm a bit hesitant and don't know if this old emulsion will withstand such strong chemistry?

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 16, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
What I mean here, my friend, is the culture of vision.
You saw those pictures and you said they looked pretty acceptable.
But most of the Egyptians' opinions are that they are horrific and totally unacceptable.
Therefore, I was thinking of resorting to a black and white image, as it is without colors and would be acceptable in most cases.

I never said they were acceptable. I said they looked cool... as in they have an interesting look that would appeal to some. Keep an open mind.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
With E6 process, bad first developer will give black film, because the fog/redevelop will develop all the halide. Bad bleach will give black film with (sometimes) very faint color ghosts, because the developed silver will be left in the emulsion. Bad fixer will give milky halide with superposed color images (usually just the top layer will be visible, though you can sometimes see all colors with light behind the film).

Only bad color developer (or fogging failure) will produce completely blank film with either C-41 or E-6 films -- or else getting the chemicals out of order, of course.

What would you do if you were in my place?
Do you agree to develop according to the process (AGFA SCALA)
Or do you agree to develop using a traditional black and white developer such as (Kalogen)
Or do you agree to give the process (E6) another try, perhaps the miracle will happen and that old emulsion will respond with it?
And in all cases, are we supposed to take pictures on the ISO with the box number? Or less pause or what?

Ivo Stunga · Sep 16, 2021

Have developed a couple of expired E-6 films as BW slides for testing and educational purposes, and giggles too. Liked the result in a strange way, and it is definitely doable if color is a no-go for some reason.
What's stopping you exactly to try this empirically, to have a go with 1 or 2 films and develop them the Agfa or Ilford, or whatever reversal way?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
I never said they were acceptable. I said they looked cool... as in they have an interesting look that would appeal to some. Keep an open mind.

Yes my dear ,,
They look cool
I understand that this term means that they seem somewhat acceptable.
I always have an open mind, my dear friend.
English is not my original language, so sometimes it is an obstacle in understanding the exact meanings.
Thank you

Don_ih · Sep 16, 2021

Overexpose a stop or two (your sample images were underexposed, it seems). Develop in C41. Then enlarge onto b&w paper. E6 film cross processed enlarges onto b&w paper nicely.
Even the images you have posted would probably look better as higher-contrast enlargements onto b&w paper.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Ivo Stunga said:
Have developed a couple of expired E-6 films as BW slides for testing and educational purposes, and giggles too. Liked the result in a strange way, and it is definitely doable if color is a no-go for some reason.
What's stopping you exactly to try this empirically, to have a go with 1 or 2 films and develop them the Agfa or Ilford, or whatever reversal way?

Yes, I will be honest with you on this matter.
10 rolls will be distributed to 10 young men.
These films were bought because they are very cheap, almost one roll for a dollar and a quarter. Of course, this is due to the economic conditions that we live in here, as it is very difficult for these young people to buy expensive films.
- These young men will come from different places to film the pyramids, and everyone depends on those films in order to get a black and white image,
I don't want to disappoint or shock someone if their film is damaged.

So I agree with your point of view.
There is a roll among that quantity that is my right, and I will photograph it, and I will divide it into a number of strips and make an experiment for each development process first. Until I settle on the most successful process, then I will develop the rest of the films according to that process.
Well, I understand now.
But what really puzzles me is, what is the ISO number that I should advise young people with, will the box number be the best option or what?

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Overexpose a stop or two (your sample images were underexposed, it seems). Develop in C41. Then enlarge onto b&w paper. E6 film cross processed enlarges onto b&w paper nicely.
Even the images you have posted would probably look better as higher-contrast enlargements onto b&w paper.

I understand from the context of your words that you advise me to shoot those films at ISO 25 (note that the box number is 100 for most films, only a few are 400)

Ivo Stunga · Sep 16, 2021

In my experience slide film never loses its sensitivity, only becomes more whacky over time - less dense, colors shifting, fogging... The same has been repeated on othe threads too.
If you need reliable results, this party will hardly be for that I guess.
Set your ASA to box speed and bracket exposures while you're testing those reversal processes. Then you'll arrive at the actual sensitivity too.

mohmad khatab · Sep 16, 2021

Ivo Stunga said:
In my experience slide film never loses its sensitivity, only becomes more whacky over time - less dense, colors shifting, fogging... The same has been repeated on othe threads too.
If you need reliable results, this party will hardly be for that I guess.
Set your ASA to box speed and bracket exposures while you're testing those reversal processes. Then you'll arrive at the actual sensitivity too.

yes dear brother,
Your point of view corresponds to the point of view of many friends here in the forum who told me the same opinion.
And they said that the (E6) films are films of a special nature, and the film should be filmed according to the box number, whatever development process it will adopt.
Do you agree with this opinion, dear brother?

How to use Positive Film as black and white

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