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How to prevent yellow stain in print from sun?

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darkosaric

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Hi all,

I saw a print that was standing in gallery for 15-20 days - in the sun from a windows, and white border on paper was pretty yellow. Is there a cure for this? This print was printed on Ilford multigrade FB, fixed in Ilford rapid fixer, properly washed. But no toners whatsoever.

Will some toner prevent this? Gold toner?

Regards,
 

Ian Grant

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It's likely it wasn't fixed archivally and there was a trace of semi-soluble silver thiosulphate complexes left in the paper.

Two bath fixing and a careful check of the silver level in the second fixer would eliminate this.

Ian
 

Jim Noel

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If you want to be sure papers are adequately fixed and washed it is necessary to follow the long time procedure -Two FRESHLY MIXED fixing baths of 5 minutes each followed by a wash aid and then final wash. Don't trust the test indicators to tell you the fixer is fresh. Most of these only tell you that the fixer is not so loaded with silver it won't do the job.
It is safer to count the sq. inches of paper run through the baths and stay well below the manufacturers recommendations.
 

Ian Grant

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It depends what fixer is used Ilford Hypam or Rapid fixer will start to bleach the image particularly with Warm tone papers if you fix for 5 mins and you're advocating doing that twice.

Ilford deliberately use short fixing times because it cuts the amount of fixer and semi-soluble silver-thiosulphate complexes permeating into the paper base.

Ian
 

Photo Engineer

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Use a retained Silver test kit to see if there is any retained Silver of any sort including hypo complexes. This is a simple drop test applied to the border and the result is compared to a test chart.

Yellow stain can also arise from retained HQ, and there is no test for that available for home use.

PE
 

NB23

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Ilford rapid fixer for 5 minutes?

I'm no expert but from what I understand, such a long time in the fixer kills its archivability and becomes unwashable. I'd certainly fix 1-2 minutes Maximum and wash for one Hour.
I'd Tone in Selenium.

I'm willing to bet that the cuprit here is the 5 minutes fixing time. That's just too much.
 

cliveh

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You make a high res scan of the print and print an archival inkjet.
 

NB23

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-Fix 1-2 minutes with fresh fixer
-Tone the image with Selenium. Gold even better, as well as Sepia. But Selenium is best if you want to keep the image B&W.
-UV Glass over the print.
 

NB23

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You make a high res scan of the print and print an archival inkjet.

Without a Glass over it, the inkjet will fade and might become mushy.
 

cliveh

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Without a Glass over it, the inkjet will fade and might become mushy.

I beg to differ, I had a room with several archival inkjet prints pinned to the wall, no cover or frame and some of them received full sun for several hours everyday during the summer months. After several years they showed no signs of change. Now that sort of technology is what I call a wonderful addition to photography.
 

NB23

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I beg to differ, I had a room with several archival inkjet prints pinned to the wall, no cover or frame and some of them received full sun for several hours everyday during the summer months. After several years they showed no signs of change. Now that sort of technology is what I call a wonderful addition to photography.

I've experienced what you've experienced as well as the opposite.

Also, many times a shift will occur but we don't notice it until we compare it with a well stored copy print. Only then we notice quite a big difference between them.
 

Prof_Pixel

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Without a Glass over it, the inkjet will fade and might become mushy.

It's wrong to treat 'inkjet' as one monolithic item. There are a multitude of papers, inks and pigmented inks leading to an almost infinite number of possibilities. Some combinations are great, some are good and some are fair in keeping properties. One thing for certain, anything you though you knew about ink jet prints a few years ago probably isn't correct today.
 
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darkosaric

darkosaric

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Ilford rapid fixer for 5 minutes?
I'm no expert but from what I understand, such a long time in the fixer kills its archivability and becomes unwashable.

Hmm ... after 5 minutes unwashable? I was thinking that 5 minutes is not that long.
 

NB23

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It's wrong to treat 'inkjet' as one monolithic item. There are a multitude of papers, inks and pigmented inks leading to an almost infinite number of possibilities. Some combinations are great, some are good and some are fair in keeping properties. One thing for certain, anything you though you knew about ink jet prints a few years ago probably isn't correct today.


Yes, probably!
 

NB23

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Five minutes is NOT that long.

PE

As I very carefully said in my post: I am not an expert on the question. But from reading the most I could about fixers and fixing times, one thing always came out very clearly: Never over fix a FB print, especially not with rapid fixers.
I find it amazing that suddenly I'm reading that 5 minutes is not that long.

I'm baffled.
 

Photo Engineer

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It depends on fixer, wash water and photo material. That is why you run post wash tests as I indicated.

And, having designed developers, fixes, bleaches and blixes for a living at EK, I do consider myself an expert to some extent. So, I say 5 mins is not too long. Test your conditions though.

PE
 
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There is so much misinformation and lack of information about fixing, even here on APUG, that a dedicated, sticky "Proper fixing and testing techniques" thread might be a really great idea.

A couple of observations.

The Ilford "stronger fix for shorter times" strategy is predicated on the idea that a stronger ammonium thiosulfate fix will do the fixing job in the emulsion before it has a chance to soak deeply into the fiber-base of the paper. The idea was to reduce the washing times, use less water, etc. This system works, but the fixing times have to be really short and the fix has to be fresh, fresh, fresh. It uses less water for washing, but in practice often requires more fixer... unless you're using two-bath fixation over several cycles.

And, if you end up fixing for more than two minutes, you've saturated the paper base with fixer and have to use longer wash times anyway.

None of that means that longer fixing times make anything "unwashable." One just needs to use a wash aid and extend the wash time enough.

And, this doesn't mean that the regimes recommended by Kodak and others (with longer fixing and washing times) are less effective.

There are lots of papers and fixers and workflows. The only reliable way to see if your processing is getting your prints fixed and washed enough is to test the prints themselves for residual silver and hypo. The tests are easy. I really don't see why more people don't do them. I test the last print of a batch every time I print. A drop of ST-1 and a drop of HT-2, wait three minutes and, voilá, I know if my fix and wash have been adequate. I haven't had to re-fix or re-wash a batch for years now, because I know where the limits of my regime are and I give them a healthy safety margin. I still test.

My prints don't ever have yellowing problems... even after being displayed on a wall in direct morning sun for 22 years...

Fixing is likely the most complex part of photo processing and there is a learning curve to getting a handle on it. I don't understand the exact chemical processes completely, nor do I have a complete grasp of all the subtleties of designing and testing new fixers like PE does. That said, I've read enough over the years to have developed a certain confidence that I can intelligently use fixers of all kinds, do the processing and testing, and produce prints with optimum permanence. It's well worth embarking on the journey and reading about fixation in detail enough to do that for any careful worker. Many here obviously don't even follow the directions that come packaged with the fixer they are using... and end up with underfixed and underwashed prints that end up yellowing... then they post here and complain... Oh well.

Best,

Doremus
 

Ian Grant

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And, if you end up fixing for more than two minutes, you've saturated the paper base with fixer and have to use longer wash times anyway.

None of that means that longer fixing times make anything "unwashable." One just needs to use a wash aid and extend the wash time enough.

Doremus

The real issue here is if the silver levels in the fixer have risen with use then prolonging fixing will allow more of the semi-soluble silver thiosulphate complexes to bond weakly to the cellulose in the paper base and these may become very difficult to wash out even with a wash aid.

From experience 5 minutes in fresh Hypam or Ilford Rapid fixer is too long and definitely causes slight image bleaching (with warm tone papers), the recommend time is 1 minute at 1+4 and 2 minutes at 1+9

Ilford recommend a maximum silver level in a one bath fixer of 2g/litre for FB prints and say -you can go to 4-6g/litre with RC paper as the paper base is protected on both sides by an impervious polythene layer.

Ian
 

Gerald C Koch

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Fixer was checked with tetenal fixer checker (those small papers with indicators), fresh for sure - but one bath. Fixed for 5 minutes with constant agitation. Washed in first running water for 15 minutes, then for 1,5 hours in vertical washer with running water.

What matters is not the silver content of the fixer but rather the residual silver in the print. Various factors can prevent the silver-thiosulfate complexes from washing out of the paper. For example alum in hardening fixers slows the washing of FB papers.

Exposure to sunlight combined with today's air pollution can have very negative effects on a print.

The presence of a very small amount of thiosulfate or certain other sulfur containing chemicals in the print can aid in archival permanence. This is why Kodak stopped recommending the use of HE-1 many years ago and the idea behind such products as Sistan. It is also the reason why prolonged washing can also have a detrimental effect on permanence.

It would be interesting to know the age of the artist who produced the problematic print. So much good darkroom knowledge is being ignoreed today. The internet is no substitute for practical hands on teaching by a good instructor.
 
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Photo Engineer

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You want to know if both hypo and Silver complexes are present. The test at the URL you gave only shows the presence or absence of hypo. Also, the test chart is missing.

There are two tests that should be run as I have noted earlier.

PE
 

RalphLambrecht

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not necessarily;actuallysulphide toner could have shownit even earlierbecause,as Geraldalready stated,I too suspect tthat the print was underfixedand had residual non-image silver in it.two -bath fixing is the best cure to prevent this type of premature degradation.
 

Gerald C Koch

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There is also another problem with testing fixer for excess silver. It tends to give the user a false sense of security. I have always discarded fixer on the basis of how many prints have passed thru it. I never exceed the recommended capacity. Fixer is cheap but paper and the user's time are more valuable.
 
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