How to meter for flash when shooting a portrait or still life when using a old camera without hot shoe?

jason_foto · May 6, 2024

This kinda borders with hybrid *maybe* since I am using a modern Flash.

Has anyone used a flash and synced the shutter speed with an old camera and old lens before? How am I able to use it?

For specifics:
I have a Sekonic 308 light meter
Using a: GW690 (the first generation)
Want to sync it with a modern flash: Godox V860ii

Is there any guide or simple calculation that I can go through?

Thanks.

Chan Tran · May 6, 2024

You can use the hot shoe and shutter speed can be any speed as the GW690 has in lens shutter. The flash will only work in manual. You will have to find a chart in the manual somewhere (Godox manual is hard to find on the web) for the guide number based on zoom setting and power ratio setting. Use the guide number divided by the distance give you the f stop for direct flash. For bounce flash you would need a flash meter or a digital camera.

BrianShaw · May 6, 2024

As mentioned above, set the flash to manual. Then use the flashmeter.

ic-racer · May 6, 2024

Mount the flash on a light stand with an adapter like shown below with a long PC cord. Remove the cable from the flash to the camera and connect it to the Sekonic 308.
Follow the instructions for the 308 to make the reading. Re-connect to cable to the camera.

Sirius Glass · May 6, 2024

Either a cold shoe or a hot shoe will work using the Guide Number.

BrianShaw · May 6, 2024

... or a sync cord with pc and 2.5mm mini

Chan Tran · May 6, 2024

The one thing I don't like about the new flashes that they don't have a non TTL auto mode any more. Such a mode would be useful to use with fully manual camera like the GW690.

BrianShaw · May 6, 2024

Chan Tran said:
The one thing I don't like about the new flashes that they don't have a non TTL auto mode any more. Such a mode would be useful to use with fully manual camera like the GW690.

Yes, it is a shame that on-flash auto-mode sensors are a thing of the past. That feature sure would be convenient!

If I’m not mistaken, that flash has a 2.5mm synch port, and the camera has a pc port… so manual mode is possible with either GN/distance computation or a flash meter. A bit less convenient, though.

Recently, in similar situation, I ended up getting an older Nikon SB-16 to replace failed Vivitar 285s. It shocked me to find that good pc cords are so hard to find anymore.

FotoD · May 6, 2024

You have a flash meter. Hold the meter near the subject, point the dome toward the camera and press the measure button, then pop the flash. Your meter will tell you what aperture to use on the camera.

Don't worry about guide numbers.

Chan Tran · May 6, 2024

BrianShaw said:
Yes, it is a shame that on-flash auto-mode sensors are a thing of the past. That feature sure would be convenient!

If I’m not mistaken, that flash has a 2.5mm synch port, and the camera has a pc port… so manual mode is possible with either GN/distance computation or a flash meter. A bit less convenient, though.

Recently, in similar situation, I ended up getting an older Nikon SB-16 to replace failed Vivitar 285s. It shocked me to find that good pc cords are so hard to find anymore.

The GW690 has a hot shoe so the flash can be used with the hot shoe and in manual mode. Manual mode with a film camera requires a flash meter which is quite time consuming. For a multiple lights setup a flash meter is fine but for single flash on the hot shoe and you have to use the flash meter is kind of a pain. I do agree with you flash sync cord is hard to come by as most people today when they do off camera flashes they do it wirelessly. I still prefer to use cords. You said you get the SB-16 and it's a SB-16b with the standard hot shoe? I have 2 SB-16 and the feet to make it either a SB-16A or SB-16B. For the price of a new Godox I get a used SB-800 which is TTL compatible to almost all Nikon cameras that support TTL and also have the on flash auto mode for fully manual camera or other brands cameras.

wiltw · May 6, 2024

FotoD said:
You have a flash meter. Hold the meter near the subject, point the dome toward the camera and press the measure button, then pop the flash. Your meter will tell you what aperture to use on the camera.

Don't worry about guide numbers.

Guide Numbers provided by speedlight manufacturers have long tended to be optimistic...back before 2010, a nu,mber of us tested Canon, Metz, and other brand speedlight units using flash meters, and we found flash units to be optimistically rated...if 10' suggested f/16 with GN 160 flash unit, often one would meter f/11. Threads on POTN discussed this optimism. So I would take FotoD's suggestion to heart, and simply measure with a flash meter.

FWIW, Godox lists GN=190 for the V860i.

koraks · May 6, 2024

Chan Tran said:
flash sync cord is hard to come by as most people today when they do off camera flashes they do it wirelessly

Yeah, me too, really. I use a cheap Chinese wireless trigger set that plugs into the camera's hot shoe and also accepts a regular 2.5mm jack from a sync socket. I use this with anything from 35mm up to large format. The wireless trigger conveniently has a test switch that can be pressed to pop the flash.

FotoD said:
Hold the meter near the subject, point the dome toward the camera and press the measure button, then pop the flash. Your meter will tell you what aperture to use on the camera.

That's it, that's all there is to it. Adjust lighting to taste depending on the readings.

Chan Tran · May 6, 2024

wiltw said:
Guide Numbers provided by speedlight manufacturers have long tended to be optimistic...back before 2010, a nu,mber of us tested Canon, Metz, and other brand speedlight units using flash meters, and we found flash units to be optimistically rated...if 10' suggested f/16 with GN 160 flash unit, often one would meter f/11. Threads on POTN discussed this optimism. So I would take FotoD's suggestion to heart, and simply measure with a flash meter.

FWIW, Godox lists GN=190 for the V860i.

The GN=190 that is for maximum zoom of about 200mm on a 35mm. For the normal lens on the GW690 it's more like 110 or so.

BrianShaw · May 6, 2024

Chan Tran said:
The GW690 has a hot shoe so the flash can be used with the hot shoe and in manual mode.

The first generation of GW690 does not have a hot shoe; it has an accessory shoe (cold). Hot shoe was added in the second version.

Perhaps I should written: If I’m not mistaken, that flash has a 2.5mm synch port in addition to the hot shoe, and the camera has a pc port… so the camera and flash combination can be used in manual mode with or without a hot shoe adapter.

BrianShaw · May 6, 2024

Chan Tran said:
…
You said you get the SB-16 and it's a SB-16b with the standard hot shoe? I have 2 SB-16 and the feet to make it either a SB-16A or SB-16B. For the price of a new Godox I get a used SB-800 which is TTL compatible to almost all Nikon cameras that support TTL and also have the on flash auto mode for fully manual camera or other brands cameras.

Off topic, but…

I bought SB-16 and both feet so I can use it in various modes, on F3, on FE, and with several cameras that don’t have hot shoes. Actually, I may have got that idea from you! In the last instance I use the flash shoe only as a way of attaching to a handle mount.

RalphLambrecht · May 6, 2024

YidaPhoto_JS said:
This kinda borders with hybrid *maybe* since I am using a modern Flash.

Has anyone used a flash and synced the shutter speed with an old camera and old lens before? How am I able to use it?

For specifics:
I have a Sekonic 308 light meter
Using a: GW690 (the first generation)
Want to sync it with a modern flash: Godox V860ii

Is there any guide or simple calculation that I can go through?

Thanks.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question. There is no hotshoe required to fire the electronicflash, but you need an X-sync contact on camera or lens. The light meter hasnothing to do with it. Use it to determine the required aperture and set the lens accordingly. set the shutter to the camera's shortest syns speed ()typically between 1/60 to 1/250 of a second. The shutter will open and a few ms later the X-sync will trigger the flash. Then the shutter closes again. Your exposure time is basically the flash duration time,which is flash-dependent but typically around 1,1000 of a second(fast enough to freeze all but the swiftest motion).

jason_foto · May 6, 2024

Chan Tran said:
You can use the hot shoe and shutter speed can be any speed as the GW690 has in lens shutter. The flash will only work in manual. You will have to find a chart in the manual somewhere (Godox manual is hard to find on the web) for the guide number based on zoom setting and power ratio setting. Use the guide number divided by the distance give you the f stop for direct flash. For bounce flash you would need a flash meter or a digital camera.

Sorry forgot to mention, that GW690, the oldest version which does not have a hot shoe, therefore I need some way to use it and meter it for film.

jason_foto · May 6, 2024

RalphLambrecht said:
I'm not sure I fully understand the question. There is no hotshoe required to fire the electronicflash, but you need an X-sync contact on camera or lens. The light meter hasnothing to do with it. Use it to determine the required aperture and set the lens accordingly. set the shutter to the camera's shortest syns speed ()typically between 1/60 to 1/250 of a second. The shutter will open and a few ms later the X-sync will trigger the flash. Then the shutter closes again. Your exposure time is basically the flash duration time,which is flash-dependent but typically around 1,1000 of a second(fast enough to freeze all but the swiftest motion).

Is an X-Sync a Sync Cable? Thats what I found on google.

jason_foto · May 6, 2024

BrianShaw said:
Yes, it is a shame that on-flash auto-mode sensors are a thing of the past. That feature sure would be convenient!

If I’m not mistaken, that flash has a 2.5mm synch port, and the camera has a pc port… so manual mode is possible with either GN/distance computation or a flash meter. A bit less convenient, though.

Recently, in similar situation, I ended up getting an older Nikon SB-16 to replace failed Vivitar 285s. It shocked me to find that good pc cords are so hard to find anymore.

I think there is an M mode for this Godox flash that will allow me to use it with a 3.5mm jack. Thanks for the info! I got a PC cable just now from Samy's and will try to figure it out.

MattKing · May 7, 2024

jason_foto said:
Is an X-Sync a Sync Cable? Thats what I found on google.

X-Synch is actually the flash synchronization itself - the type that you need when using electronic flash, in order to make sure that the flash and the shutter are "synched" - i.e. the flash goes off when the shutter is fully open. The other alternatives are the ones used with flash bulbs, because of the need to fire bulbs earlier, in order that they have the time to reach maximum intensity.
Your issue relates to how the camera's flash synchronization circuit - which is part of the shutter mechanism - connects to the electronic flash, and causes that flash to go off at the exact right time.
At the camera end, the most common modern* flash connectors use either a hot shoe, or a Prontor-Compur ("PC") connection.
If you are using the PC connection on the camera, you need a cable with a PC connector at the camera end, and at the flash end whatever connection that the flash uses - which can also be a PC connection, but can also be proprietary, or a 2.5mm connector, or .......

(*I say "modern", because there are other, older, and no longer considered standard connectors that were found on much older cameras. They tended to be for flash bulbs mostly)

RalphLambrecht · May 7, 2024

jason_foto said:
Is an X-Sync a Sync Cable? Thats what I found on google.

the x-sync is the contact to which you connect such cabel.

wiltw · May 7, 2024

jason_foto said:
I think there is an M mode for this Godox flash that will allow me to use it with a 3.5mm jack. Thanks for the info! I got a PC cable just now from Samy's and will try to figure it out.

M sync is absolutely the WRONG flash synchronization to use with any electronic flash...it is intended for flashBULB firing only.. the contact closes first so that the metal foil inside is ingnited and the bulb has a slight delay to its peak light output, so the shutter opens a brief time AFTER the bulb is triggered.
Some cameras have only a single PC port, which is switchable by the user for X-sync with electronic flash or for M-synch for M-sync bulbs (or perhaps also for FP-sync for FP sync bulbs)

MattKing · May 7, 2024

wiltw said:
M sync is absolutely the WRONG flash synchronization to use with any electronic flash...it is intended for flashBULB firing only.. the contact closes first so that the metal foil inside is ingnited and the bulb has a slight delay to its peak light output, so the shutter opens a brief time AFTER the bulb is triggered.
Some cameras have only a single PC port, which is switchable by the user for X-sync with electronic flash or for M-synch for M-sync bulbs (or perhaps also for FP-sync for FP sync bulbs)

While this is correct, I expect that "M" mode on the flash refers to Manual exposure, nor M-synh.

Chan Tran · May 7, 2024

wiltw said:
M sync is absolutely the WRONG flash synchronization to use with any electronic flash...it is intended for flashBULB firing only.. the contact closes first so that the metal foil inside is ingnited and the bulb has a slight delay to its peak light output, so the shutter opens a brief time AFTER the bulb is triggered.
Some cameras have only a single PC port, which is switchable by the user for X-sync with electronic flash or for M-synch for M-sync bulbs (or perhaps also for FP-sync for FP sync bulbs)

The OP talked about the M mode on the flash which is the manual mode (the only mode his flash would work with the GW690). I think the GW690 has only X sync and doesn't have M or FP sync.

jason_foto · May 8, 2024

koraks said:
Yeah, me too, really. I use a cheap Chinese wireless trigger set that plugs into the camera's hot shoe and also accepts a regular 2.5mm jack from a sync socket. I use this with anything from 35mm up to large format. The wireless trigger conveniently has a test switch that can be pressed to pop the flash.

That's it, that's all there is to it. Adjust lighting to taste depending on the readings.

I hope I saw this earlier. I bought the wrong jack, 3.5mm, I am going to exchange it tomorrow for a 3.5mm.

MattKing said:
While this is correct, I expect that "M" mode on the flash refers to Manual exposure, nor M-synh.

Chan Tran said:
The OP talked about the M mode on the flash which is the manual mode (the only mode his flash would work with the GW690). I think the GW690 has only X sync and doesn't have M or FP sync.

Yes MattKing & Chan Tran, that's why I think this question kind of borders with hybrid discussion a little since my flash is a modern one.

How to meter for flash when shooting a portrait or still life when using a old camera without hot shoe?

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How to meter for flash when shooting a portrait or still life when using a old camera without hot shoe?

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