How to emulate the look and feel of pictures by Helmut Newton
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I was thinking that you were attempting to learn technique and apply it to your work rather than just copy the guys stuff in all aspects.
When I looked at his work I saw content, not technique or a developing style. I am not a photo technician so I don't see technical stuff when I look at photos
What I am saying is that emulation of his work (for anyone, not you) seems less about technique and mostly content so asking people technical questions here could seem out of place because of that.
My reference to "magic" was to the so-called "magic bullet" It's a phrase that is used often on APUG to refer to the mistaken( in my opinion and others also) belief that there is in fact a film and developer combination that answers the question you asked in very specific terms about obtaining the Helmut Newton look which seemed to unnecessarily exclude other aspects such as lighting etc.
Based on what I had already said and the
I had placed after my statement that I know the right film and developer combination but wasn't going to share it I had thought that my attempt to inject a bit of humour was obvious but clearly it wasn'tI think the best I can now do is to promise not to bother you again by replying with unhelpful and useless advice. I now so promise.
pentaxuser
After being quite active in the community here for years I have gotten to know many of the active posters. I don't speak for them specifically but I do know a good bit about their stances, and they know about mine.
The point I'm trying to get across is that the texture of your pictures is only marginally dependent on a specific film/developer combo: telling a print made from an HP5 negative, from a print made from a Tri-X negative, from a print made from a Neopan 400 negative; is really tough.
The look/texture is instead is almost completely dependent on how you use the materials in hand.
The point I'm trying to get across is that the texture of your pictures is only marginally dependent on a specific film/developer combo: telling a print made from an HP5 negative, from a print made from a Tri-X negative, from a print made from a Neopan 400 negative; is really tough.
The look/texture is instead is almost completely dependent on how you use the materials in hand.
You may loose your identity on chasing others and eventually lost.
Few test rolls with developers like Rodinal, D-76 and HC-110 and exhaustively print them. Its hard but you will there...
Few test rolls with developers like Rodinal, D-76 and HC-110 and exhaustively print them. Its hard but you will there...
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I have the English translation of Helmut's "Big Nudes", there is technical data (but not developers) on p84.
"All photographs were taken on Kodak Tri-X film; 320 ASA for format 120 and 400 ASA for format 135"
Only 4 of the pictures were taken on 35mm, he seems to have preferred medium format.
He may have used Tri-X for those 4 pictures because the light was dim rather than any other preference.
These 4 pictures don't look like they were developed in Rodinal to me, the grain is too fine, maybe D76 or HC 110.
Most of the medium format look like they were developed in solvent developers as well.Your friend may have seen medium format and thought it was 35 mm which would account for the apparent contour sharpness.
You are quite right to check, there is a big difference in the appearance of films developed in Rodinal and in solvent developers.
Thank you, dear APUG-members, for responding to my question, your help and your regards on that topic are well appreciated.
@Alan Johnson:
Thank you very much - so "Big Nudes" is the next book to purchase. So it's Tri-X for sure. Exposing the 120 and 135 film differently? Alright, will try that as well.
On Rodinal: My experience with this developer is limited: Stand development 1:100 and 1:25 and 1:50 dilutions. Isn't it like that: Longer development, more grain, more details in the shadows (when agitaded gently)? Shorter develpment, less grain, more sharpness, less details in the shadows? And thanks for your thoughts about Rodinal, HC110 and D-76. I had the same feeling about that issue. But as quoted in the initial post, learning how to deal with Rodinal might be an basic lesson for me which is still on the agenda.
I understand that the results depend to the printing process after the development, of course.
@markbarendt:
I am glad about having found this forum and I respect the fact that membership for a long time gives the feeling of community.
@pentaxuser:
Sorry for reacting bilious and crabby. On a better day I should have detected the humorous approach of your text with ease. It's just that I was expecting a special attitude and was ready to find my way through all this with a machete.
@trythis:
Thank you for your explanation, now I understand.
@Alan Johnson:
Thank you very much - so "Big Nudes" is the next book to purchase. So it's Tri-X for sure. Exposing the 120 and 135 film differently? Alright, will try that as well.
On Rodinal: My experience with this developer is limited: Stand development 1:100 and 1:25 and 1:50 dilutions. Isn't it like that: Longer development, more grain, more details in the shadows (when agitaded gently)? Shorter develpment, less grain, more sharpness, less details in the shadows? And thanks for your thoughts about Rodinal, HC110 and D-76. I had the same feeling about that issue. But as quoted in the initial post, learning how to deal with Rodinal might be an basic lesson for me which is still on the agenda.
I understand that the results depend to the printing process after the development, of course.
@markbarendt:
I am glad about having found this forum and I respect the fact that membership for a long time gives the feeling of community.
@pentaxuser:
Sorry for reacting bilious and crabby. On a better day I should have detected the humorous approach of your text with ease. It's just that I was expecting a special attitude and was ready to find my way through all this with a machete.
@trythis:
Thank you for your explanation, now I understand.
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The 320 Tri-X and the 400 Tri-X were different emulsions. The 320 was originally made for sheet-film portraiture work and had a different shape of curve to the 400 version. Since that time, the 320 is no longer available and the 400 has been "updated". The printing paper isn't really clear from the quotes in this thread - was it an early Multigrade (probably unlikely), or a hard graded paper, perhaps there was heavy use of a reducer - lots of variables.
As I mentioned before, try to identify very carefully what you like about the pictures then start with materials you think will be able to continue to use, and iterate towards your goal. Questions phrased like "how do I get from this result [show an attachment] to this one [show another attachment]" will be more likely to get clear answers.
Wanted Helmut Newton and got Peter Lindbergh
Thank you again for your precious suggestions. Now I had some days off and the chance to shoot some film for pleasure. This is what I got: Tri-X 400 overexposed at 320 (because of the skin tones) with a standard Planar 80 on a Hasselblad. I ran out of D-76, so I mixed it 1:3 and went for 25 Minutes with gently rotating the film in a Patterson tank. The 1:3 dilution is a serendipity thing - it worked out fine. The shadows are exaggerated here in the centre, but not too much. I had the feeling that I was looking for a Helmut Newton Texture but found some Peter Lindbergh styles.
Mecklenburg by Dead Link Removed, on Flickr
Now to something new.
Thank you again for your precious suggestions. Now I had some days off and the chance to shoot some film for pleasure. This is what I got: Tri-X 400 overexposed at 320 (because of the skin tones) with a standard Planar 80 on a Hasselblad. I ran out of D-76, so I mixed it 1:3 and went for 25 Minutes with gently rotating the film in a Patterson tank. The 1:3 dilution is a serendipity thing - it worked out fine. The shadows are exaggerated here in the centre, but not too much. I had the feeling that I was looking for a Helmut Newton Texture but found some Peter Lindbergh styles.
Mecklenburg by Dead Link Removed, on Flickr
Now to something new.
Pole is very close to the subject and that kind of distracting me. 1:3 showed its character by holding the highlights a bit.
I have the Lustrum press "Nude Theory" book in front of me (exceptional value, great book, like all the rest in the series). Here are some of my notes from Newton's section. Maybe they'll be useful to you:
-----
Is fond of Pentax 40mm for "perfect focal length". Uses TX exposed at 400 ASA [for a picture illustrated], but “If I have very bright sunlight with a lot of speed left over, then it is beautiful to make negatives at an exposure index of 200, which is much better. Personally, I don’t like to see grain in a photograph.”
“I like to expose and develop normally. Everything is done by the book…the negatives they [a custom lab he has used for years] develop are extremely good. I don’t like thin negatives, I think they are a problem.”
“I often use artificial light because I like to photograph at night. Generally I use 100- or 60-watt bulbs because I hate burning in a print. I am very careful about artificial light, particularly a 500-watt bulb, because it can become too crude and impossible to control. The hardness of sunlight is another quality because it is purer, easier to control, and has much more “bounce””
“I do a lot of my work at midday, even in the desert, because I adores hard light, whether I’m working on fashion, portraits, or nudes. With the nude, hard light brings out those muscles.”
“As a rule I use an orange filter the moment I get sunshine. In the old days, I used a lot of red filters. My filters are not very dark, about one stop. The orange filter helps the skin. It makes the skin look smoother and suppresses minor blemishes. I just have to be careful that the lips don’t go too pale. You can compensate with lip-stick, but with a red filter the lips go completely white. I don’t think there is ever any point in putting a filter on when there is flat light.”
“Sometimes, even in broad daylight, it is easier to use a tripod when you want an exact composition. The only thing is, the mistakes can be a great help”
-----
Is fond of Pentax 40mm for "perfect focal length". Uses TX exposed at 400 ASA [for a picture illustrated], but “If I have very bright sunlight with a lot of speed left over, then it is beautiful to make negatives at an exposure index of 200, which is much better. Personally, I don’t like to see grain in a photograph.”
“I like to expose and develop normally. Everything is done by the book…the negatives they [a custom lab he has used for years] develop are extremely good. I don’t like thin negatives, I think they are a problem.”
“I often use artificial light because I like to photograph at night. Generally I use 100- or 60-watt bulbs because I hate burning in a print. I am very careful about artificial light, particularly a 500-watt bulb, because it can become too crude and impossible to control. The hardness of sunlight is another quality because it is purer, easier to control, and has much more “bounce””
“I do a lot of my work at midday, even in the desert, because I adores hard light, whether I’m working on fashion, portraits, or nudes. With the nude, hard light brings out those muscles.”
“As a rule I use an orange filter the moment I get sunshine. In the old days, I used a lot of red filters. My filters are not very dark, about one stop. The orange filter helps the skin. It makes the skin look smoother and suppresses minor blemishes. I just have to be careful that the lips don’t go too pale. You can compensate with lip-stick, but with a red filter the lips go completely white. I don’t think there is ever any point in putting a filter on when there is flat light.”
“Sometimes, even in broad daylight, it is easier to use a tripod when you want an exact composition. The only thing is, the mistakes can be a great help”
- Took a note on 'Orange filter' and no filter.
Since you're such a fan, I have this Helmut Newton book, the XL one SUMO - It's not really my cup of hot cocoa. I'll happily sell it, interested?
The only correct answer to your original question is to be born Helmut Newton. Since that is an impossibility, my response is for you to find your own style and refine the look of your work to that end. It's fine and dandy to be influenced by anothers work, but to emulate it is not art, or flattery, merely laziness, as you must be willing to look inside yourself to find what you stand for, and willing to work hard to define it.
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To emulate is to learn and explore. It is not laziness. Do you see students in museums doing sketches of old masters and tell them they are lazy?
Justify it however you want, to take lessons by studying is one thing, to copy a style, boring and unimaginative.
My point exactly. Some of my friends are artists and practicing and studying is a common thing for them, no matter if they are painters, sculptors, writers or musicians. I feel dedicated to photography and practicing and studying is a common thing for me as well.
Great, thank you! This book was mentioned earlier here, so I ordered a copy and hope it will be here soon. Nice detail with the lipstick and the red filter! It was quite nice to overexpose Tri-X during precious moments of my vacation - I never did that before on purpose - and I felt comfortable with it because I heard about the theory of doing this beforehand.
Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid my expenses on photographic gear were too high recently, so I surely can't afford it, even if I would love to own a copy.
As you might have noticed earlier in this thread, I don't care too much about advice like that and prefer not to be bothered by avuncular reprehension. Especially there are no arguments delivered and if arguments by others are ignored. Old men's bad habits.
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Avuncular reprehension.
Love it!
I'm sitting here grinning and chuckling as I see your reaction to the same lecture I give my kids and my students. Best retort I've ever received.
I prefer greatly to simply by accident have found a style and then somehow someone comments that my style is similar to Helmut Newton, rather than to seek it out.
Go find your own way, use this photographer and others as a guide of course if you really wish to, but you will find that you like something different than the one you want to emulate and will find your own style.
If you can't already envision the way that he did, then it's probably an impossibility, it's something that is sort of inherent nature not something that can simply be learned, because there is creativity in his work, thinking outside the box especially in his timeframe, and designing whole ideas from his brain. You can't just "copy" that because unless you're simply looking to replicate each individual image she's maybe, you have to have your own creativity and design images yourself with your own mind, he's not exactly someone you can just go and ask hey can you tell me how to take this photo and then simply make the click.
Good luck!
PS I made this before I knew who Helmut Newton was
This first one might be digital, can't remember now and I shot one frame with digital and one frame with some GAF aerial 70mm film, The point was to see if I could get them to match, and I was able to, so if course now I'm on my phone so I can't tell which one is which as they look identical and I didn't do a good job of identifying which was which in my phone files, but the other three are definitely film.
I definitely see my own style anything images, but some have said that some of my work including at least one of these images gives a very Helmut Newton style look. But of course this was "discovered" only after I had already taken the image, I suggest you do the same, discover your helmet newton style by accident, that's the best way.
Go find your own way, use this photographer and others as a guide of course if you really wish to, but you will find that you like something different than the one you want to emulate and will find your own style.
If you can't already envision the way that he did, then it's probably an impossibility, it's something that is sort of inherent nature not something that can simply be learned, because there is creativity in his work, thinking outside the box especially in his timeframe, and designing whole ideas from his brain. You can't just "copy" that because unless you're simply looking to replicate each individual image she's maybe, you have to have your own creativity and design images yourself with your own mind, he's not exactly someone you can just go and ask hey can you tell me how to take this photo and then simply make the click.
Good luck!
PS I made this before I knew who Helmut Newton was
This first one might be digital, can't remember now and I shot one frame with digital and one frame with some GAF aerial 70mm film, The point was to see if I could get them to match, and I was able to, so if course now I'm on my phone so I can't tell which one is which as they look identical and I didn't do a good job of identifying which was which in my phone files, but the other three are definitely film.
I definitely see my own style anything images, but some have said that some of my work including at least one of these images gives a very Helmut Newton style look. But of course this was "discovered" only after I had already taken the image, I suggest you do the same, discover your helmet newton style by accident, that's the best way.
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Im all for using great artists as emulation tools from which, to learn . I had to do a few series akin to that when I was in school, and I found that it was a great way to focus on certain photographic principles and elements.
That being said, I took what I learned, and applied it, where I deemed appropriate, to my personal style/interests/subjects. Now, I'm not a great photographer, but I do feel that I took lessons from great people and try to make them my own.
To formulaically copy a method for the sake of making your work in lock step with another shouldn't be the goal of your art, it probably won't give you the satisfaction you crave. Do yourself a favor, and re-read the comments that you didn't like above. People aren't trying to chide you on your wants, as much as they are giving you the tough truth of your endeavors.
That being said, I took what I learned, and applied it, where I deemed appropriate, to my personal style/interests/subjects. Now, I'm not a great photographer, but I do feel that I took lessons from great people and try to make them my own.
To formulaically copy a method for the sake of making your work in lock step with another shouldn't be the goal of your art, it probably won't give you the satisfaction you crave. Do yourself a favor, and re-read the comments that you didn't like above. People aren't trying to chide you on your wants, as much as they are giving you the tough truth of your endeavors.
I share your fascination with Helmut Newton, and I believethatI made quite a few imagesin his style;at leastI was told so.I used Tmax 400 in D761+1 and took the images with a Hasselblad 501 C and an 80mmZeiss Planar;of course, you need the right models and plenty of baby oil on their skin
Merci beaucoup
@Rick: I'm glad you took it with humor. Of course you're right will all that, but I wasn't asking for that kind of advice - which I know very well for myself. I'm happy to share your opionion about genuine work and ideas.
@Ralph: TMax and D-76? Alright - one roll. I have some TMax developer here and feel bad when not using it for the T-Grain-Maxxes. In a documentary Newton says he also offered the models some rubber nipples if they felt like this. To be more explicit.
@bjmc: The book arrived today! What a spectacular atelier! Gosh.
@all: I'm not interested to copy someone else's style, relax. I was just looking for the grain, the texture, the skintones and the contrast. I don't think too much about artistic and creative aspects of Newton's work. That's easy. And what I like most about it: his work has humor, is rooted in Germany (he had to flee as a Jew) and comes to terms with aspects of art he was born into. Leni Riefenstahl's Work influenced him, build his ideals and he had to overcome it - at least transcend it, mock on it. Whatever. That's not what rattles me about his work which doesn't feel cold to me (he's often blamed for that). There was something else. I came across his photos when I was 19-23, and these people were adults, I mean: official adults. I was a very young adult and all that pictures had to do with someone else's universe. That was inspiring.
Having spent some days at the sea, I'm happy that I came back with a lot of rolls of Tri-X, Neopan 400, TMax and stuff and it was nice to look at the results. The skin tones I was looking for are coming closer, they are easier to get now. I don't know if I'll be using an orange filter in that pale Berlin light (Newton: "Black seas, black forests."), but overexposing a little felt good. And doing that D-76 thing again.
Next is Stephen Shore and Dennis Hopper. And Jeanloup Sieff I guess - my Nikkor 20/2.8 AiS can't wait to get the sporty young mother from upstairs into the hyperfocal range.
@Rick: I'm glad you took it with humor. Of course you're right will all that, but I wasn't asking for that kind of advice - which I know very well for myself. I'm happy to share your opionion about genuine work and ideas.
@Ralph: TMax and D-76? Alright - one roll. I have some TMax developer here and feel bad when not using it for the T-Grain-Maxxes. In a documentary Newton says he also offered the models some rubber nipples if they felt like this. To be more explicit.
@bjmc: The book arrived today! What a spectacular atelier! Gosh.
@all: I'm not interested to copy someone else's style, relax. I was just looking for the grain, the texture, the skintones and the contrast. I don't think too much about artistic and creative aspects of Newton's work. That's easy. And what I like most about it: his work has humor, is rooted in Germany (he had to flee as a Jew) and comes to terms with aspects of art he was born into. Leni Riefenstahl's Work influenced him, build his ideals and he had to overcome it - at least transcend it, mock on it. Whatever. That's not what rattles me about his work which doesn't feel cold to me (he's often blamed for that). There was something else. I came across his photos when I was 19-23, and these people were adults, I mean: official adults. I was a very young adult and all that pictures had to do with someone else's universe. That was inspiring.
Having spent some days at the sea, I'm happy that I came back with a lot of rolls of Tri-X, Neopan 400, TMax and stuff and it was nice to look at the results. The skin tones I was looking for are coming closer, they are easier to get now. I don't know if I'll be using an orange filter in that pale Berlin light (Newton: "Black seas, black forests."), but overexposing a little felt good. And doing that D-76 thing again.
Next is Stephen Shore and Dennis Hopper. And Jeanloup Sieff I guess - my Nikkor 20/2.8 AiS can't wait to get the sporty young mother from upstairs into the hyperfocal range.
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Two points. Kodak designed HC-110 to produce results as close to D-76 as possible. So it matters very little whether one uses HC-110 or D-76. Second, if good skin tones are desired then do not push Tri-X or any other film. You may wish to underrate Tri-X at an EI of 200 and develop for a lesser amount as has been previously suggested. In addition I would not use Rodinal. Unless care is taken this developer can produce harsh tones. I would suggest thoroughly reading Kodak's informational literature on HC-110 and Tri-X and Tri-X Professional. The two films have different responses.
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