How to deal with a women's insecurity about her body?

Ed Sukach · Nov 8, 2005

The word is "rapport". That is dependent on the "being" of the one to be photographed, and I have *NO* formula for obtaining it. None. All I can suggest is to try to "read" the model's reactions - look for what is positive, and what is negative - to HER/ him. Do the positive.

Some will like light talk and joking - to others this will be a maximum turn-off... they will expect deadly seriousness.

A couple of things *I* do, working with figure studies: I ALWAYS pay my models. I find it necessary in establishing a serious, "professional" (in the best sense of the word) relationship, and I will direct my attention rather narrowly toward the task at hand -- obtaining the best image possible. The model/ subject will usually sense this, and be drawn to do to same, refocusing her attention.

No, it doesn't always work. One must keep one's sense of humor in those cases. Stay "light", roll with the punches -- and move on.

BTW - The "classic" solution for "short legs" is a low camera angle. Unfortunately, this also tends to emphasize thigh girth... but it is usually worth a try.

JohnArs · Nov 8, 2005

Hi Aggie

There is a book with nudes from big strong womans from Herlinde Koelbl and I had the same idea but she was faster then I, so I tropped the idea!
And she was faster because she is a woman and for me it was unpossible to find XXXlarge ladys for posing nude in front of my camera!
I did not want to pay prostitutes for it I was looking for just normal bussiness woman or housewifes!
But for a portraitist it should be known how to light a person to look better and how to put the camera in the right place.
There are many books about it, especially in german are the older ones the best in thad kind of subject!

arigram · Nov 8, 2005

When I ask a woman to lend her beauty for photographs and she objects because of doubts about her photogenic appearance I just explain her that a good photographer takes good photos so there is no way that she would appear other than beautiful and "perfect" in my photographs.

blansky · Nov 8, 2005

arigram said:
When I ask a woman to lend her beauty for photographs and she objects because of doubts about her photogenic appearance I just explain her that a good photographer takes good photos so there is no way that she would appear other than beautiful and "perfect" in my photographs.

You smooth talking devil.

And to think that you have tried to pass yourself off on this site as shy and reserved.

Michael

roteague · Nov 8, 2005

BradS said:
Yes, and quite well too Robert. Your work is amazing.

Brad, thanks for the vote of confidence. It is much appreciated.

haris · Nov 8, 2005

Aggie said:
First off I know you are just joking. But this is just exactly why women over time have gotten so darn self concious. In our world, not so much is thought about how a man looks. Granted the hair thing will get in the way, but how many times has a man been thought of as overweight until he really is exceedingly overweight? Who cares if he is not the proper proportions? Does he lose out on job interviews because of his looks? There are a myriad of things that society as a whole expects of women in the looks department. These sterotypes of perfection are laughed about and a constant undercurrent for woemn to try and attain. wfe, I am not berrating you, just siting that this thing happens. I recently lost a whole lot of weight. Well over 100 pounds. You should have seen the reactions of some people who had not seen me during that time. Some I wanted to hug, and others I had to restrain myself from smacking. Granted I (this is my opinion) think women are more emotional. We take the whole load of crap that is fed to us about being perfect. I lost the weight for health reasons. Ya know what I've gained? I have a butt that hangs my legs look like a sharpei puppy, Perky is not a word I associate with my now 38 long breast size. I could fly with the extra skin that is under my arms if I could find a nice mountain to jump off of. Being Thanksgiving my neck looks like a Tom Turkey. AND I STILL WILL NOT GET IN FRONT OF A CAMERA!

Any of you guys shooting nudes ever consider shooting one of a fat lady? Ask yourselves why? Then back track and think a bit. What would happen if you did ask a fat lady to pose nude for you? Use those same platitudes you are using on women you do shoot nudes of. Yeah we are insecure, we have been trained to be insecure and to strive for perfection. What a crock.

Brad I am not degrading you or any of the men who have responded. Just voicing the emotion of one who has been on the otherside of this. You all mean well. It is a tough thing and there are not just individual reasons, it is drummed into us and society at large has trained us to be fearful of our lack of perfection.

Aggie, I often thought about that issue. One example: Once I was in coffe shop with my friend. She is fashion designer. There was sitting by next tabe one couple, very attractive girl and hers boyfriend. When he noticed that my friend and I payed attention to his girlfriend he started to talk to her, very angry about way she dresses, we even heard he told her "go home, change your dress, and return". Now, I will never understand why that girl didn't stand up instantly and left that idiot for good. What I want to say. Reason why woman will pay that much attention what we will thing about how they looks is theire problem. Yes, I know how this sounds. But, on earth exist about 6 billion people and more of half of them are woman. So, how smaller number of men force theire way of thinking over larger number of women? Because you ladies allowe to us that. And pure fact that men are physically stonger is not answer. I know, that is not exuse for us man to bahave like we do, but ladies, you can not hope that we will change. Nobody give up of power and possibility to control other by himself. You ladies have obligation, in fornt of yourselves, to force us to change. Some of us will do that volouterely, but you ladies can not take that for granted. Like using condoms. I as man should have it, but intelligent girl will have it in any case and not hope that I will have it or not. She should think about herself.

That is why Aggie, how ever you have point, that is not important. We men will continue to act as we do simply because we can. And that is only reason. Untill someone, you women, make us to stop.

P. S. Before someone attack me, I was not talking how I treat women, I was talking about what I think why woman are treated like they are. After all I am cynic enough to think that we, human kind are parasites on Earth. We use Earths resources, polute our planet, and don't give anything in return. Even when we are dead we put our dead in boxes and not allowe animals to eat our leftovers or to rotten into ground and to become food for plants or other living species on Earth. That is why we are parasites here. And cpecies like that can not have respect for its own members, as for other species.

Regards

blansky · Nov 8, 2005

In males our animal instincts often override out intellect. That damn testosterone again.

Gee haris, that parasite thing is kinda harsh.

MIchael

smieglitz · Nov 8, 2005

Thomassauerwein said:
...I can count on 2 fingers the people I've worked with that are "perfectly formed" and had the ability to get past their tiny details long enough to assimulate themselves into a concept and make the images better. Yet the interesting people with self confidence give easily and in volume...

So very true.

What we get to do as Photographers/Artist or "whatever" is very special. Allowing a sitter to trivialize these efforts over little tiny details is a distraction. So I'm all for blowing past those concerns and moving on to what is important. ...

Very well said.

Ed Sukach · Nov 8, 2005

haris said:
... Because you ladies allowe to us that. And pure fact that men are physically stonger is not answer. I know, that is not exuse for us man to bahave like we do, but ladies, you can not hope that we will change. Nobody give up of power and possibility to control other by himself. You ladies have obligation, in fornt of yourselves, to force us to change. Some of us will do that volouterely, but you ladies can not take that for granted....

"It's not MY fault. It's ... (fill in the blank), theirs!! I don't want to demean and dominate others ... but I have no choice!! Why? Because they LET me beat them up! Translation: "I have no will of my own."

That is why Aggie, how ever you have point, that is not important. We men will continue to act as we do simply because we can. And that is only reason. Untill someone, you women, make us to stop.

Amazing!! And I'll bet you really DO believe this!!

Aggies point **IS** important. Period!

Aggie · Nov 8, 2005

Haris I understand perfectly how you feel. I for one do not take the crap. I STILL WILL NOT GET IN FRONT OF A CAMERA. I dare any of the people here that know me to say that I let anyone run my life for me. I really get mad at some of the women in my church. They defer to the men in all things, and forget that they have a brain between their own ears. Back when I was thin, I worked one summer in a reforestation project. we split the men and women into two groups doing certain chores. The men for the most part did the work with the big hand held auger digging the holes, while the women planted the trees. Both sexes scraped the ground clear for the guy with the auger. For several days the men joked about how we were all inferior to them since we were incapable of running the auger. Blasted small petite less than a 100 pound girl took the challenge and after 10 minutes admitted defeat. We heard about it for hours. I'm danish, and a redhead. You can imagine how this grated on me. I also was raised as a farm girl who had to buck hay right along side of her brother. I never said a word, I just took the auger and proceeded to the humble the men for the next 2 hours. They switched off at one hour to let their arms rest from the vibrations. I was so pissed I would not give in. I hurt for weeks after that. They never knew I was in pain. They shut up!

I agree if we as women take the treatment, we deserve the rewards of it. We are capable of thinking for ourselves and many do. We are capable of many tasks, but some of us choose to not do them. I personally like it when a guy opens the door for me. I do not like it when someone even another female decides for me what I can and canot do.

As to body image, it is more than what the men dictate to us, it is other females. Be a woman and hear what thin women have to say about you when you are fat. That kind of discrimination knows no gender bias.

Not every female is fat due to over eating either. I will smack anyone upside the head that says that without knowing that person is joking.

JohnArs don't give up on the project. You can still do it. Nudes have been done to death, yet that is an area that is not over saturated.

One thing you guys are forgetting is to show samples of your work. Show that female what is possible when you take their picture. All the platitudes in the world will not do as much good as setting her at ease with the possibilities of your creativity. Talk as they say is cheap, pictures speak a thousand words.

bjorke · Nov 8, 2005

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION:

Be her friend. Every photograpph reflects a relationship.

And IMHO, the "core" of the nude genre -- pale, lithe, somewhat anonymous and inert -- has indeed been so over over over over done. Something else, please.

Charles Webb · Nov 8, 2005

Very early in my photographic beginnings I was introduced to a technique that still today has the ability to help relax a nervous person while sitting under the lights and in front of the box......... I have not heard the the term "French Plating" in perhaps 30 years, but at one time in the history of
photography "most all good studio photographers" practiced it and used it with great results. Karsh used it with Churchill etc. Does anybody use "French Plating" today? Should it be tried? I don't have the answer to that, but it just might be worth a try with a self conscious "sitter" today. Perhaps there is a glossary somewhere that explains "French Plating" but I have not been able to find it. The term originated during the early wet plate days when camera operators had trouble getting their patron to sit still with out moving long enough to get his/her exposure. The practice of the camera operator inserting an empty holder into the camera then asking the sitter to look his way or towards the camera then tripped the shutter, or took off the lens cap and made a fake exposure on the empty holder. Replacing the empty holder with another, still without the wet plate, then went through the motions of making another exposure. After perhaps the third time the operator did this along with the accompaning chit chat the sitter had relaxed enough to sit still for the real exposure. They even used flash powder to convince their patron that indeed they were really making an exposure. There were no plates wasted and most exposures were worthy of the extra time spent. Today by popping the strobes or releasing the shutter along with the rapport you have developed with the sitter has the same effect and encourages the sitter to relax. As the photographers of France were among the first to us the technique it was called "French Plating" Simply the act of going through the exact same camera procedures with an empty holder still has the ability to help a self conscious person to relax..

Charlie......

gr82bart · Nov 8, 2005

BradS said:
You know what I'm talking about, how do you get her to relax and not worry about whether her backside looks too big or her tummy isn't flat enough, etc...

Well this will require an entire course in posing. Additionally posing women is far different than posing men. It's a matter of direction. I give clear loud intructions to her, but I direct one small thing at a time. For example:

"Face me with with both your legs pointed at me. Move your right leg 6 inches towards me. Place your hands on your hips. Turn your hands so your thumbs are facing me. Turn your head to your right slowly, more, more..." etc... Basically I don't give her time to thinks she's ugly or whatever she thinks. I have her concentrate on posing. If I want to her to smile I will recall something she said to me earlier when I first met her or when she was in the makeup or stylist area. I pepper her for info that I can use to make her 'feel' in the expression I want her to look.

Attached is a few test pics of Alysia. You guys (and gals) will have to tell me if you think she's good looking or not. She doesn't thinks so and before this shoot, she never had a photoshoot - ever.

On the technical side, how do you pose and light a beautiful young lady who thinks her her legs are too short and her thighs and gluteus maximus are too big?

Short ladies, I shoot low angle. Big butts, I get them to turn in such a manner that doesn't emphasize their big butts. High key is also good at getting the WOW! to overcome any 'blemishes' you think she may have. Also scenery can compliment her and give her the illusion of height or thiness if that's what you are looking for.

How tall do you think Alysia is? Let's say not 5'10"

Regards, Art

Struan Gray · Nov 9, 2005

Dead Link Removed

gbroadbridge · Nov 9, 2005

gr82bart said:
Well this will require an entire course in posing. Additionally posing women is far different than posing men. It's a matter of direction. I give clear loud intructions to her, but I direct one small thing at a time.

Nicely explained Art, and nice shots although I think the third shot is not so good. Why did you place the model so that the light fixture looks like a cancerous growth out of the models head?

Graham.

gr82bart · Nov 9, 2005

gbroadbridge said:
Why did you place the model so that the light fixture looks like a cancerous growth out of the models head?

LOL!

Yeah, I remember that one. I tried to balance the lights to match the output of that light fixture to get a 'halo' effect. Didn't work. (In the post PS print, the light fixture magically disappears! Don't tell the jihad, K?)

Regards, Art.

haris · Nov 9, 2005

Michael, I know...

Ed Sukach, you misundertood me. But, in one or two previous posts about different issues you had not only disagrement with me, but very strong disagrement told with vocabulary which shows you don't like me. So, I will not try to explain further, you have right to your opinion, I only don't understand what I did so bad that you try to turn my words in sense I didn't told them. But, whatever you want, I have no problems with that, that is your problem.

Aggie, I can only hope you understand me. My post was about thinking why we men act like we do. I thought about it long time, not only now (I am 36), but when I was teenager, in my 20ths, and my only conclusion is made in two parts: We act like we do only because we can, and second: we will not volounterely give up of power to control.

And befor Ed again strongly disagree with me, I must say this: Not every men act like I said, but those which do act like that do that for reasons I told before. With open mind that I am completely wrong, that was my conclusion.

Example of behaviour of man from Balkan. One Romanian film is good example. Girl, father, mother, grandfather. Girl was raised almost as a boy, she works in fathers car repairing shop in small Romanian town (father allways wanted a son). She dream about become photographer. Father, formally total authority in familly, but not de facto, strong handed deals familly issues. Mother won't stand that anymore, leaving and goes to Bucurest. Girl was raped by major of that small town. Father did nothing being afraid to lose certificate for his car repairing shop. Girl abandon hers dream about becoming photographer, and gowes to mother in Bucurest.

1. Man who mistreated woman are mostly afraid of higher authority, that is why they deal with theire frustration with mistreated weaker, mostly woman. (Father)

2. Woman often chose not to fight for theire rights. (Mother, instead to stay and fight for her and daughter, she escape far from problems, thus leaving father to continue to do deal how he wants with daughter). That is my point of reponsability of woman to fight back, which is NOT excuse for us men to mistreat women.

Regards

Andy K · Nov 9, 2005

How to deal with a women's insecurity about her body?

If anyone does have the definitive answer to this, would they please enlighten the rest of the male species? In 43 years I have yet to find the correct answer to any appearance/body/fashion question from a woman. Thankyou.

haris · Nov 9, 2005

Andy K said:
How to deal with a women's insecurity about her body?

If anyone does have the definitive answer to this, would they please enlighten the rest of the male species? In 43 years I have yet to find the correct answer to any appearance/body/fashion question from a woman. Thankyou.

I think there is no definite answer. If there is, that wouldn't be issue, isn't it

Ed Sukach · Nov 9, 2005

gbroadbridge said:
Nicely explained Art, and nice shots although I think the third shot is not so good. Why did you place the model so that the light fixture looks like a cancerous growth out of the models head?

Light fixture? What light fixture? There is a light fixture??

... Of course I know that there is a light fixture there - but Art was illustrating an effective POSE ... not the fine points of composition. To this end, I think it is a fine, useful example of what POSE might work.

Ed Sukach · Nov 9, 2005

haris said:
Ed Sukach, you misundertood me. But, in one or two previous posts about different issues you had not only disagrement with me, but very strong disagrement told with vocabulary which shows you don't like me. So, I will not try to explain further, you have right to your opinion, I only don't understand what I did so bad that you try to turn my words in sense I didn't told them. But, whatever you want, I have no problems with that, that is your problem.

Aggie, I can only hope you understand me. My post was about thinking why we men act like we do. I thought about it long time, not only now (I am 36), but when I was teenager, in my 20ths, and my only conclusion is made in two parts: We act like we do only because we can, and second: we will not volounterely give up of power to control.

Haris ...

The idea that "I don't LIKE you" is not true. I don't know you, and it is one of my goals in life to NOT hate/ dislike PEOPLE ... but their actions and to a lesser degree, their concepts and philosophies are fair game for argument ... I hope to keep that argument civilised and coherent ... without personal attack.

In reading the rest of your message, it is apparent that I *did* misunderstand. You were talking about the male population, or some of them, in general, not that it was your own, private philosophy.

My Opinion? I don't think the primary motive for ANY action could ever be ONLY that " I did it solely because I could." I CAN place my hand on a hot stove - but I will not. Why? Because I do not WANT to. There MUST be something other than "I can"... something that will cause someone to WANT to humiliate/ beat up/ abuse ANYONE else. That "other thing" might be insecurity, fear of losing some status, anger misdirected, "that is the way I was taught"... any number of reasons - but not just "because I can."

You were commenting on the flawed behavior of others ... I agree that it is flawed, and certain members of the human race should contemplate what they are doing... and correct what makes them do what they do. It is impossible for me to disagree with that idea.

"When you attack your opponent with intent to harm, whether you succeed or not, you are defeated. True victory can only come through harmony and peace."

- Aikido.

BradS · Nov 9, 2005

Charles Webb said:
Very early in my photographic beginnings I was introduced to a technique that still today has the ability to help relax a nervous person while sitting under the lights and in front of the box......... I have not heard the the term "French Plating" in perhaps 30 years, but at one time in the history of
photography "most all good studio photographers" practiced it and used it with great results. Karsh used it with Churchill etc. Does anybody use "French Plating" today? Should it be tried? I don't have the answer to that, but it just might be worth a try with a self conscious "sitter" today. Perhaps there is a glossary somewhere that explains "French Plating" but I have not been able to find it. The term originated during the early wet plate days when camera operators had trouble getting their patron to sit still with out moving long enough to get his/her exposure. The practice of the camera operator inserting an empty holder into the camera then asking the sitter to look his way or towards the camera then tripped the shutter, or took off the lens cap and made a fake exposure on the empty holder. Replacing the empty holder with another, still without the wet plate, then went through the motions of making another exposure. After perhaps the third time the operator did this along with the accompaning chit chat the sitter had relaxed enough to sit still for the real exposure. They even used flash powder to convince their patron that indeed they were really making an exposure. There were no plates wasted and most exposures were worthy of the extra time spent. Today by popping the strobes or releasing the shutter along with the rapport you have developed with the sitter has the same effect and encourages the sitter to relax. As the photographers of France were among the first to us the technique it was called "French Plating" Simply the act of going through the exact same camera procedures with an empty holder still has the ability to help a self conscious person to relax..

Charlie......

Charlie, Yes. I have heard of this....a long time ago now. I had completely forgotten about it. thanks for refreshing my memory.

BradS · Nov 9, 2005

gr82bart said:
Well this will require an entire course in posing. Additionally posing women is far different than posing men. It's a matter of direction. I give clear loud intructions to her, but I direct one small thing at a time. For example:

"Face me with with both your legs pointed at me. Move your right leg 6 inches towards me. Place your hands on your hips. Turn your hands so your thumbs are facing me. Turn your head to your right slowly, more, more..." etc... Basically I don't give her time to thinks she's ugly or whatever she thinks. I have her concentrate on posing. If I want to her to smile I will recall something she said to me earlier when I first met her or when she was in the makeup or stylist area. I pepper her for info that I can use to make her 'feel' in the expression I want her to look.

Attached is a few test pics of Alysia. You guys (and gals) will have to tell me if you think she's good looking or not. She doesn't thinks so and before this shoot, she never had a photoshoot - ever.

Short ladies, I shoot low angle. Big butts, I get them to turn in such a manner that doesn't emphasize their big butts. High key is also good at getting the WOW! to overcome any 'blemishes' you think she may have. Also scenery can compliment her and give her the illusion of height or thiness if that's what you are looking for.

How tall do you think Alysia is? Let's say not 5'10"

Regards, Art

Thanks Art. Some good ideas here and good examples. I think I'll have to try the low camera angle idea.

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 10, 2005

Don't think that men don't have insecurities about their bodies. I shoot a lot of men, and especially when posing nude, they are hyper-insecure about their looks. I forget who said this earlier, but I agree that in general, the "better" people look, the more insecure about their bodies they are. As a general rule, I think showing people the kind of work you do, and being able to talk openly and honestly about what you want and what you're looking for are a big help, regardless of the gender of the subject. I have found it helpful when talking to potential models and showing them my portfolio, to discuss some physical flaw or other character trait that one of my other models has, that they can see (or not see) in the photos I show them (a scar, another models' age, love handles, etc). When they see that you can make a 45- year old man with love handles look like he's 25, they tend to come around. I've also found that working with the view camera helps, because they're distracted by the camera itself and all my antics in operating it.

blansky · Nov 10, 2005

Lets face it, it's all about tits and ass and the penis.

Women are insecure about how big their boobs are, hence the fact that women get butchered to the tune of millions of boob jobs a year. They are also insecure about how big their butt and thighs are.

Men's point of ridicule is the size of their penis. That is a womans payback. Having spent far too many hours in showers and dressing rooms, I can say that they come in all sizes and most males are insecure about that.

Of course it would be as ridiculous for a male to walk around with a raging 8 inch hard on all the time as it is for women to walk around with inch long erect nipples.

I know, Waaaaay tooooo much information.

Michael

How to deal with a women's insecurity about her body?

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