How to cool a paper ?

GeorgesGiralt · Jan 4, 2005

Hi !
I'm unable to get my favorite Forte paper.
I can get Foma Fiber VC, but it is waaaaay to warm for me.
It seems that even the base is quite creamy. Do you know if I can cool this paper using a cold tone dev. or a blue black dev ?
As I mix my own, any recipe will fit.
Thanks for your help !

rogueish · Jan 4, 2005

I don't know about any cold developers, but you could always tone it cold.
Gold and blue (iron) toners will give you from grey-blue to blue-black and most shades in between.
Tim Rudman states (in his book) that neutral papers will give you grey-blue to muted blue and blue with warm tone or lith papers usingh gold toners . He has quite an extensive listing/search in the back.

Tom Stanworth · Jan 4, 2005

If its fibre, a cold dev will cool it. However, preversely, gold cools warm chlorobromide papers more than cold bromide papers to give a blue black. That warm base wont go tho!

Les McLean · Jan 4, 2005

Add 5 to 10ml of a 10% solution of benzotriazole to your working developer, it certainly cools down warm tone papers.

For what it is worth you could also try adding a very small amount of fixer to your working developer. I was teaching a workshop where each student had their own work station and chemicals, one student produced a quite beautiful cool print using the same materials as everyone on the workshop but they were producing neutral to warm prints. It turned out that he was a sloppy worker and had contaminated the developer by moving a print out of the fix tray over the developer tray and a few drops of fix had fallen into the devloper. I suggest this with tongue in cheek!

Deckled Edge · Jan 4, 2005

"That warm base wont go tho!"

Tom's right. You can throw all the chemistry and toning you like at a warm paper, and you'll end up with split toning--cool blacks and warm highlights. You will never get that chilly white you desire.
Have you any access to Kodak Polymax Fine Art? Cool, Man.

GeorgesGiralt · Jan 5, 2005

Deckled Edge said:
"That warm base wont go tho!"

Tom's right. You can throw all the chemistry and toning you like at a warm paper, and you'll end up with split toning--cool blacks and warm highlights. You will never get that chilly white you desire.
Have you any access to Kodak Polymax Fine Art? Cool, Man.

Unfortunatelly not.
In France, Kodak papers are uncommon (it seems to have a link to US paper size instead of European papers size)
I'll give a try to the Benzotriazole addition, and at the end of the session will add a few drop of fixer in the dev...
Thanks to all who answered !

Maine-iac · Jan 5, 2005

GeorgesGiralt said:
Unfortunatelly not.
In France, Kodak papers are uncommon (it seems to have a link to US paper size instead of European papers size)
I'll give a try to the Benzotriazole addition, and at the end of the session will add a few drop of fixer in the dev...
Thanks to all who answered !

Georges,

Having just returned to the US after nearly ten years in France (Paris), I can only tell you what I used when I wanted cool tones.

Ilford MG FB is still available in France, I believe. FNAC used to carry it. It's a much cooler emulsion than, e.g. Agfa MCC or Tetenal VCC (same as Agfa). I also believe Ilford markets a "cold tone" paper similar to their "warmtone" except with a colder, bluer base color.

Also, Bergger, which is made in France is available at the pro photo stores-- the one (forget the name--ProPhot?) near Metro Cadet and several along the Blvd. Beaumarchais. Bergger is a beautiful neutral to cold-tone paper, and will cool further with a cold-tone developer formula.

As for developer formulas, I also mix my own, and have found that a Phenidone-Ascorbic Acid-Hydroquinone formula using Benzotriazole as the anti-foggant will cool down almost any paper, including Agfa MCC, which is one of my favorites when processed in this way.

Bon chance,
Larry

rjr · Jan 5, 2005

Larry,

I take it that Tetenal VCC is Tetenal Vario Contrast Comfort? Thats Ilford Multigrade, Agfa MCC is labeled Vario Contrast Ultra. And actually Bergger isn´t made in France, but in Hungary at the Forte plant. ;-)

Tom,

I noticed that the Fomatone´s base color can be changed and it seems to be influenced by the state of exhaustion the developer has reached. I have made prints on that paper with both chamois and white base. I just haven´t gotten to the point to know when I achieve which base color. <g>

GeorgesGiralt · Jan 5, 2005

Hi Larry !
So, Ilford has ceased to make, as far as I know, their cold tone and warm tone papers.. As Bergger paper where made by Forte, it's unavaillable... because Forte plant is not running.
I used to print on Forte papers (bought under the Classic or Adox names) and on Ilford MGIV FB. My contacts were made on Agfa MCC, and this later one is the only one still availlable ! (the pro shop where I buy is unable to get it's Ilford papaer delivered) So I'm left with Agfa and Foma papers....
As you may know, Tetenal was not making papers, and used Ilford or Agfa stock.
I think I will need to learn to love either the price tag of the Agfa, or the warm tone of the Foma... my fear being that Agfa and Foma raise their prices !
I will be delighted by the paper dev. formula to give it a try !
TIA.

Maine-iac · Jan 6, 2005

rjr said:
Larry,

I take it that Tetenal VCC is Tetenal Vario Contrast Comfort? Thats Ilford Multigrade, Agfa MCC is labeled Vario Contrast Ultra. And actually Bergger isn´t made in France, but in Hungary at the Forte plant. ;-)

Click to expand...

Apparently (see George's reply to me above) Tetenal used both Ilford and Agfa stock. This was not true until very recently, I think, since I had been using it for years while in France (until mid-2003) and it was definitely Agfa during that time. It's pretty hard to mistake Agfa MCC for Ilford Multigrade. I bought it instead of Agfa because it was a full 20% cheaper and I could never tell the difference in printing times or characteristics. Perhaps Tetenal picked up Ilford when it got into trouble.

I didn't know that Bergger was being manufactured in Forte's plant. It was developed in France, using (I believe) the old Guillemot emulsions. I bought some here at a local camera shop that serves the University of Southern Maine's photo department. It seemed to be in plentiful supply just a few weeks before Christmas, and the store owners didn't mention anything about its unavailability. That may just be due to the size of the US distributor's existing stockpiles, but it is still readily available. My argument with Bergger has nothing to do with its qualities--it's a lovely paper--but that they only packaged it in 25-sheet quantities.

Rumor is that Ilford's back in production, with their films at least; whether their warmtone Multigrade will come back is another story; too bad if it doesn't because it was my favorite Ilford paper.

Larry

Bob F. · Jan 6, 2005

GeorgesGiralt said:
Hi Larry !
So, Ilford has ceased to make, as far as I know, their cold tone and warm tone papers..TIA.

MG-IV FB & MG-IV FB Warmtone are still in production. Apart from a few chemicals, mainly all powdered ones, my understanding is that Ilford is in production of all products and has been since a week or two after they 1st went into administration back in early September. Certainly my local camera shop's shelves suggest that is true as new boxes of MG-IV FB & RC have appeared on their shelves. A 3rd party is expected to take up the chemical business (but probably not all existing chemicals).

Bob.

rjr · Jan 6, 2005

Tetenal

Maine-iac said:
Apparently (see George's reply to me above) Tetenal used both Ilford and Agfa stock.

Yep. They still do and both cost exactly the same to the customer.

A german sales company confirmed that "coding" openly in his catalogue, Tetenal doesn´t regard it as a "trade secret".

Maine-iac said:
This was not true until very recently, I think, since I had been using it for years while in France (until mid-2003) and it was definitely Agfa during that time. It's pretty hard to mistake Agfa MCC for Ilford Multigrade. I bought it instead of Agfa because it was a full 20% cheaper and I could never tell the difference in printing times or characteristics.
Perhaps Tetenal picked up Ilford when it got into trouble.

No, VCC is in production for more than 10 years. I used both and VCC is "exchangechable" with Multigrade. Same tone, same exposure needed, same contrast, same base weight. Same stocks.

Maine-iac said:
I didn't know that Bergger was being manufactured in Forte's plant.

Their people at the Photokina confirmed it that they were/are affected by Forte´s trouble.

Maine-iac said:
Larry

Maine-iac · Jan 6, 2005

rjr said:
No, VCC is in production for more than 10 years. I used both and VCC is "exchangechable" with Multigrade. Same tone, same exposure needed, same contrast, same base weight. Same stocks.

I did not find this in my own experience. I had Agfa MCC, Ilford Multigrade IV, and Tetenal VCC in my Paris darkroom. The Agfra and Tetenal were indistinguishable in thickness, emulsion tone, base color, and printing times; the Ilford Multigrade was colder in both emulsion and base color, and the printing times were considerably different. I use the split filter technique, and I always had to give the Ilford paper much more Magenta than yellow, while the Agfa and Tetenal times for each filter were much closer. Nor did the finished prints look anything alike. Even now, looking at prints I made three or four years ago, I can tell the difference between the Agfa/Tetenal prints and the Ilford Multigrade prints at a glance, but I can't distinguish the Agfa from the Tetenal. If it is true that Tetenal is now also using Ilford stock, I still think it's been a fairly recent development.

Either that, or they sold their Agfa stock in France and their Ilford stock in Germany, or something like that.

Larry

Maine-iac · Jan 6, 2005

Bob F. said:
MG-IV FB & MG-IV FB Warmtone are still in production. Apart from a few chemicals, mainly all powdered ones, my understanding is that Ilford is in production of all products and has been since a week or two after they 1st went into administration back in early September. Certainly my local camera shop's shelves suggest that is true as new boxes of MG-IV FB & RC have appeared on their shelves. A 3rd party is expected to take up the chemical business (but probably not all existing chemicals).

Bob.

Good news. Apart from Ilfochrome and Rapid Fix, I never used their chemicals anyway, since I mostly mix my own, but I'll be happy if the papers and film continue.

Larry

rjr · Jan 6, 2005

Tetenal, once again.

Larry,

once again me. ;->

"]I did not find this in my own experience. I had Agfa MCC, Ilford Multigrade IV, and Tetenal VCC in my Paris darkroom."

Are you absolutely sure you didn´t mistake them and that you used VCC, not VCU?

" The Agfra and Tetenal were indistinguishable in thickness, emulsion tone, base color, and printing times; the Ilford Multigrade was colder in both emulsion and base color, and the printing times were considerably different. I use the split filter technique, and I always had to give the Ilford paper much more Magenta than yellow, while the Agfa and Tetenal times for each filter were much closer."

Not at all. Look at the manual at

http://tetenal.de/down_de/photo/tech_sw_photopapiere.pdf

(sorry, no english available) and compare the filter values of the papers - the values given for VCM are identical to the last digit to those I found in Ilford´s specs for Multigrade IV.

I limit it to the Durst values to keep it short:

VCC:
Filter 00 0 0,5 1 1,5 2 2,5 3 3,5 4 4,5 5
Durst 150Y 90Y 70Y 55Y 30Y ohne Filter 20M 45M 65M 100M 140M 170M

Ilford:

150Y 90Y 70Y 55Y 30Y 0 20M 45M 65M 100M 140M 170m

VCU:

Filter 0 1 2 3 4 5
Durst 60Y 30Y ohne Filter 30M 70M 130M

Agfa table in http://agfaphoto.com/broschure-pdf/professional/PSD1e.pdf including intermediate values:

60 Y 45 Y 30 Y 10 Y — 20 M 30 M 50 M 70 M 100 M 130 M

"If it is true that Tetenal is now also using Ilford stock, I still think it's been a fairly recent development."

It is true. I am using MG/VCC since 1997 and VCU shortly at that time, too. And I know they are selling it since 1995 or 1996.

"Either that, or they sold their Agfa stock in France and their Ilford stock in Germany, or something like that."

Hardly.

Maine-iac · Jan 7, 2005

rjr said:
Larry,

once again me. ;->

"]I did not find this in my own experience. I had Agfa MCC, Ilford Multigrade IV, and Tetenal VCC in my Paris darkroom."

Are you absolutely sure you didn´t mistake them and that you used VCC, not VCU?

It was definitely VCC; I still have some of the boxes which I use to store old prints in. And no, when I consult my darkroom printing log, it's clear which are which, and the Agfa/Tetenal prints are very different from the Ilford ones. It's been almost three years since I bought my last box of Tetenal, but it was VCC.

Another of life's mysteries. I still wish I could get it here in the US, since it was cheaper than Agfa. But as long as Agfa keeps making MCC, I'll gladly buy it. It's still my favorite paper currently available.

rjr · Jan 7, 2005

First, the cheapest Agfa MCP can be bought in Prague, roughly half the price compared to the german.

Second, there are several others repacking MCP under their label. I know Maco is one of them, but here in Germany that Maco is not cheaper than "the real stuff".

I am currently thinking of getting a roll of MCP/VCU - it´s darn cheap!

Ole · Jan 7, 2005

I'm fairly certain that the Baryt Vario I have is Agfa. Apart from that, I've recently been shocked by the difference between Bergger FineArt G3 and Bergger FineArt G3 Portrait.

So I test every pack. OK?

How to cool a paper ?

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