How to burn/dodge in color?

albada · Mar 27, 2022

I'm thinking of trying color printing, and was wondering:
How do folks position the burn/dodge tool before exposing?
In black and white, I turn on the red LED (with home-made LED lamphouse), position the tool, then tap the pedal to turn on green and blue, and exposure starts. Easy. But in color?

All I can think of is to put a piece of cardboard over the easel, position the tool with the enlarger on, and then pull away the cardboard to expose. Is there a less clumsy way than that?

Or are burning/dodging not done in color?

Mark Overton

MattKing · Mar 27, 2022

FWIW, I haven't used the red safety filter on a black and white enlarger to burn or dodge for at least a half century (since my high school days).
The burning card (or my hands) or my dodging tool (sometimes also my hands) just move in from outside the frame and get positioned based on how the results appear on the paper being exposed.
After you do it a lot, it happens fairly consistently and repeatably.

Vaughn · Mar 27, 2022

Thay method should work fine. I found that colors will shift slightly with long exposures during burning (color reciprocity failure).

albada · Mar 27, 2022

MattKing said:
FWIW, I haven't used the red safety filter on a black and white enlarger to burn or dodge for at least a half century (since my high school days).
The burning card (or my hands) or my dodging tool (sometimes also my hands) just move in from outside the frame and get positioned based on how the results appear on the paper being exposed.
After you do it a lot, it happens fairly consistently and repeatably.

Rephrasing to check my understanding: For a burn or dodge, you turn on the enlarger, then move your hands or tool to the correct position based on what you see on the paper. Is that correct? If you're quick, I suppose a couple of seconds of exposure in the wrong place (while positioning) will make an insignificant difference, assuming an exposure time of say 20+ seconds.

Vaughn: Does "should work fine" refer to pulling out a sheet of cardboard, or to Matt's method?

Mark

Vaughn · Mar 27, 2022

Either way. I usually just held a sheet of black mat board under the lens, turned the bulb on, got orientated by the image on the sheet, then started burning. Generally, I burned color much less (per print) than B&W, but my color work is very limited.

MattKing · Mar 27, 2022

albada said:
Rephrasing to check my understanding: For a burn or dodge, you turn on the enlarger, then move your hands or tool to the correct position based on what you see on the paper. Is that correct? If you're quick, I suppose a couple of seconds of exposure in the wrong place (while positioning) will make an insignificant difference, assuming an exposure time of say 20+ seconds.

The hands or the burning or dodging tool are never still. The brief amount of time that they are in movement across the image until they reach their destination has little effect on the result. There is always some unmanipulated exposure time before the burning or dodging sequence, and there is always some unmanipulated exposure time after the burning or dodging sequence.
If the burning or dodging are complex, I'll practice a couple of times before I put the paper in - that helps you pick up the visual clues in the image.

btaylor · Mar 28, 2022

When burning and/or dodging I already have a first trial print made so I have a pretty good idea of what I am going to be doing with my hands. Color paper is very fast and I have had to stop down and even dial in some ND with cyan to lengthen exposure. I have heard about color shifts from dodging/burning but never experienced them myself. Have fun and don’t worry about it- once you get the hang of RA4 it’s pretty easy and enjoyable.

radiant · Mar 28, 2022

albada said:
In black and white, I turn on the red LED (with home-made LED lamphouse), position the tool, then tap the pedal to turn on green and blue, and exposure starts. Easy. But in color?

My DIY lamphouse has this feature too and it is very good feature.

Idea: on color you could dim the light to minimum for first few seconds (and count this in total time with decreased "level") so mis-aligned with dodge/burn tool doesn't have such radical effect in the beginning until you have found the position..

albertphot · Mar 28, 2022

albada said:
All I can think of is to put a piece of cardboard over the easel, position the tool with the enlarger on, and then pull away the cardboard to expose. Is there a less clumsy way than that?

I don't think so, I mostly take in account one second of the whole exposure to put my tool in place, so I don't use a cardboard, but it's still clumsy to me.

I've done some dodging and burning in color, and for me the main problem is the colorshift when you burn a lot. Sometimes I changed the filters values in the dark for the burning, it's a hit or miss thing...

koraks · Mar 28, 2022

radiant said:
on color you could dim the light to minimum for first few seconds

It will be *very* dim though. Color paper is pretty darn fast and dimming far enough to give you enough time to position a piece of carboard will make the image neigh invisible, I'm afraid. It's worth a try, but I wouldn't expect too much from it. Getting exposures in the 10-20 second range you'd need to make burning/dodging a realistic endeavor already makes for a fairly dim image to begin with.
FYI on my current head if I make small 5x7" prints from 35mm exposures are between 1.5 and 3 seconds at f/16 and that image is about the brightness you'd want to comfortably burn & dodge.

radiant · Mar 28, 2022

koraks said:
FYI on my current head if I make small 5x7" prints from 35mm exposures are between 1.5 and 3 seconds at f/16 and that image is about the brightness you'd want to comfortably burn & dodge.

Maybe you have too much light.

Our club has these 1 second enlargers and nobody sees any problem with those. Except everybody trying to use them. Beginners come to show their print and it is completely black. "What was your exposure time?" "1 second". What is your aperture "fully closed". Okay ... Then I go see with focus light and the light is so bright that it shines everywhere. "Could we install a bit dimmer bulb in these machines?" -> "?!? Well, we can think about it".

Or even better; they have their base time 3 seconds and the print is a bit dark. "Try to cut development time by ummm 0.1 seconds, mmkay?" and they go fiddling with their plastic enlarger timer thingie that is accurate as hinge in a barn.

Vaughn · Mar 28, 2022

btaylor said:
...I have heard about color shifts from dodging/burning but never experienced them myself. Have fun and don’t worry about it- once you get the hang of RA4 it’s pretty easy and enjoyable.

Most evident trying to balance the value of skies -- large areas of the same color.

koraks · Mar 28, 2022

radiant said:
Maybe you have too much light.

It's about as much as I wanted, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to construct a 360W led head.
My point is, even though it's a lot of light for exposing RA4 paper, it's still not a lot of light to work with for human eyes.

albada · Mar 29, 2022

koraks said:
FYI on my current head if I make small 5x7" prints from 35mm exposures are between 1.5 and 3 seconds at f/16 and that image is about the brightness you'd want to comfortably burn & dodge.

Yet Matt King has enough time to move and position his hands or tool correctly, so I'd guess his exposure is at least 10 seconds, so it must be very dim. He must have good eyes.

koraks · Mar 29, 2022

Oh, I've done it as well on occasion. It's just not something I'd consider very convenient. You just don't have the kind of time you have with b&w.

Vaughn · Mar 29, 2022

albada said:
Yet Matt King has enough time to move and position his hands or tool correctly, so I'd guess his exposure is at least 10 seconds, so it must be very dim. He must have good eyes.

I kept my color neg exposures to around 10 seconds, plus or minus a few. Having no safelight, the image on the paper was pretty easy to see. Omega D5 and color lamphouse, medium format film.

Dang...not as nice as the print...

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2022

No different than dodging/burning black and white negs, except you don't want to have any kind of safelight involved. Yes, chromogenic color paper is rather fast. But neutral density can be used to slow down overall printing times. That's easy to do with standard colorheads. Aim for around 20 to 40 seconds or so. Anything under 10 sec is almost impossible. If I can do that with big pro enlargers capable of printing big 30X40 inch prints in mere seconds, slowing things down using ND or onboard attenuators, anyone can do it. I've used up to 2000 W halogen heads. The basics are the same. No big deal.

That being said, whenever realistic, I prefer to automate all those manipulation chores via registered supplemental masking. But that's most efficient where sheet film originals are involved, using specialized punches and exposure frames, etc.

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2022

Vaughn - you got a picture of my old childhood swimming hole! ... except the water look too clean.

Sirius Glass · Mar 29, 2022

If you add cyan, yellow and magenta in equal proportion will serve as an neutral density filter. Carefully.

DREW WILEY · Mar 29, 2022

.... and if all three filters are still of rated density, i.e., if none have spalled off some of their original dichroic coating, sometimes a problem with old overheated colorheads.

Vaughn · Mar 29, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Vaughn - you got a picture of my old childhood swimming hole! ... except the water look too clean.

That's Australia, mate, and I got a word for you -- leeches.

Good red volcanic soil of a plateau about 2000 feet above present sea level, with the sea 20 miles due East as the magpie flies. (32km)

Land was cleared by the first white settlers, including my ex-wife's grandma. Photo was on the family farm...marrying into the family meant learning to milk...getting a fire going to heat the water and then getting the cows. Two sets of cups on the milking machine and 50 cows. Not too bad. Hose every down afterwards, use the hot water to wash and sanitize the machinery. Glad I am not a dairyman. Everything there wants to bite or sting you. If not to kill you, then to annoy the heck out of you. And flies. And stinging nettle trees for god sake.

The rosewood that was cleared off the plateau was highly prized. Now all cows, crops, and the newish thing, avacados. Still some of these gums about on the property...I might have burnt in a little on the right. (6x7cm color neg, trying to keep it on topic).

DREW WILEY · Mar 31, 2022

Now the eucalyptus, at least the red gum variety, is all around here, still up in the Berkeley and Oakland hills, just waiting for another catastrophic fire due to it. By at least this particular neighborhood is a reasonable distance from any of that. The Park district itself is doing a good job of cleaning up downfall in eucalyptus groves and improving fire road access, along with brush fire training or urban fire departments; but homeowners can be pretty stubborn when it comes to their own shade trees.

Sirius Glass · Mar 31, 2022

DREW WILEY said:
Now the eucalyptus, at least the red gum variety, is all around here, still up in the Berkeley and Oakland hills, just waiting for another catastrophic fire due to it. By at least this particular neighborhood is a reasonable distance from any of that. The Park district itself is doing a good job of cleaning up downfall in eucalyptus groves and improving fire road access, along with brush fire training or urban fire departments; but homeowners can be pretty stubborn when it comes to their own shade trees.

Unless they are in a California Fair Plan area and then they get pissy because they get hit with a brush surcharge.

cliveh · Mar 31, 2022

How to burn/dodge in color?
Ansel Adams on steroids.

DREW WILEY · Mar 31, 2022

Hi Sirius. Depends on the jurisdiction. Most of it around here is either public land, or if developed, under various individual city jurisdictions, who are finally slowly coming to their senses and starting to tighten the screws. My other property (now sold) was on Forest Service land. Even as an inholding, you either clean up your brush and grass on schedule every year, or they come in with a court order and giant bill and do it for you. Of course, having lived through several big forest fires, I don't believe in a twenty foot clearing around a house - twenty miles makes more sense! And yes, I have experienced hot ash falling from that far away! .... But back to the topic ....

AA on Steroids? Like I already hinted earlier, doing it in color is just as easy as in black and white printing, with the one exception of it being a little bit difficult to make out the projected image if there's an integral orange mask involved due to being a color negative. And, uh, er, as per Ansel's ideas about color printing, I don't think he ever did it. He did take a number of color sheet films chromes competently exposed and then farmed them out for sake of offset printing. Get the book, Ansel Adams in Color. Not bad, not bad at all. But he had numerous photog neighbors there in Carmel who knew a thousand times more about actual color printing than he did. It always kinda mystified him. He wasn't equipped for that either.

How to burn/dodge in color?

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