How nuts are you about temperature?

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, but temperature controlled nuts!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Everything affects everything. That is nothing new.

Question is: what real life effects does it have? Are your negatives ruined if you mess up with one degrees of celcius? Two? Five?

Damn it! Stop acting like a parent! Besides it is Centigrade we are talking about.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

These things don't even need noting for your own use, they are your habits and they work, problems can arise if you assume your habits are everybody else's' habits.

Personal habits indeed. I'm sure there are people who start their timer when they start pouring the developer, others when it is poured, and others when they have closed the lid on the tank.

Guess if you end up adding or subtracting 15-20 seconds to your development time to get the negs you like with a particular film/developer combo, you should make your method clear before giving your timing as advice to someone else.

 

[warden]

After enjoying the posts in this thread I've changed my vote from "close enough, no adjustment" to "I don't think temperature is that important", although I'm probably in-between those two options somewhere.

I do think an overall consistent and repeatable approach is important though (temp, time, agitation technique, etc), and then letting the appearance of your negatives guide you. Fretting about fractions of a degree or a few seconds in the developer won't work for me if I can't see the difference on the print.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Personal habits indeed. I'm sure there are people who start their timer when they start pouring the developer, others when it is poured, and others when they have closed the lid on the tank.

Guess if you end up adding or subtracting 15-20 seconds to your development time to get the negs you like with a particular film/developer combo, you should make your method clear before giving your timing as advice to someone else.

I play the intro to Major Tom. As soon as he's gone through the countdown, I start my timer, then turn my body to the left once, then to the right twice. By that time, all the developer is in the tank. My 8-track player ate the tape, so I'm looking for a new song. Any recommendations? Doesn't have to be on 8-track...

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I play the intro to Major Tom. As soon as he's gone through the countdown, I start my timer, then turn my body to the left once, then to the right twice. By that time, all the developer is in the tank. My 8-track player ate the tape, so I'm looking for a new song. Any recommendations? Doesn't have to be on 8-track...

I wouldn't know. I either do semi-stand timed to side two of Meddle, or full stand development timed to Tubular Bells, full album, three inversions right after flipping the LP.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I wouldn't know. I either do semi-stand timed to side two of Meddle, or full stand development timed to Tubular Bells, full album, three inversions right after flipping the LP.

For semi-stand development, I bring the bagpipes out and play every tune on Andy Stewart's greatest hits album...Twice, for full on stand. My darkroom is soundproof.

 

[JerseyDoug]

For timing I pour the developer into the tank**, put the cap on the tank, start the timer, and start agitation. When the timer goes off I remove the cap from the tank, pour out the developer, pour in the plain distilled water stop bath, put the cap back on the tank, restart the timer, and start agitation. If the timer was set to 11 minutes, for example, is the film developed for exactly 11 minutes? It's pretty darn close but I don't care anyway. Compared with 11 minutes any real life variation is meaningless.

**With a Kindermann funnel and a 250 ml tank the developer goes in _very_ fast.

 

[macfred]

And if it really is too cold in the darkroom, a glass of booze will help ...
What temperature do you guys recommend for a good footbath?

 

[MattKing]

Everything affects everything. That is nothing new.

Question is: what real life effects does it have? Are your negatives ruined if you mess up with one degrees of celcius? Two? Five?

They aren't ruined, but they will be different.
Inconsistency adds uncertainty and stress. If you can take easy and easily repeatable steps to minimize inconsistency, it makes life more enjoyable.
For variables that it are relatively easy to control, than it is worthwhile to control them.
The trick is to understand which variables are relatively easy to control, and which variables are beyond easy control, and to spend time and effort where it makes sense.
I standardize on one or two films. Which means that that source of variability is under control.
As I've mentioned, I always develop black and white film in replenished developer at the ambient temperature. Which makes it easy to control the temperature.
I adjust the development time to the temperature. That is a trivially easy calculation - I rely on the development computer referenced earlier, and I use its indicated results, to the nearest 1/4 minute, because it is easy to do that.
I have a consistent approach to volume of developer in the tank - 1 litre - and I've done enough agitation that it is pretty consistent.
By choosing the variables that are easy to control, I can reduce the variability of results to those that arise from what is not easy to control - like subject, lighting conditions and my visualized results. Those variables add enough uncertainty for me.
And so it is clear, sometimes those last three variables cause me to change the development - for example to increase contrast by extending development. When "normal" development is easy to do consistently, changed development is easy as well.
All those little bits of care and attention to detail are easy, and beneficial, so I do them.
And I do my best not to get exercised about the rest.
I wonder if anyone has ever published "Zen and the Art of Film Development"?

 

[faberryman]

I wonder if anyone has ever published "Zen and the Art of Film Development"?

Robert Pirsig would probably write: “Development of film require great peace of mind."

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I wonder if anyone has ever published "Zen and the Art of Film Development"?

Way overdue.

Matt, your description of your process is essentially what I'm working towards. Works well with pre-mixed developers. Not as simple with devs such as Rodinal or HC-110, but again, once consistency of process is reached - I'm thinking distilled water stored at room temp -, it all comes out the same.

Namaste.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I wonder if anyone has ever published "Zen and the Art of Film Development"?

Actually....

Also saw Zen Camera and Zen and the Magic of Photography. But no Zen Development.

 

[MattKing]

@MattKing you preach all the right things (eliminating as many confounding variables as possible), but your own routine is not a good example of it:

• Use of replenishing. Replenished solutions are never as consistent as mixing one-shot.
• Ambient temperature development. Any time adjustment is always an approximation, and the results cannot be as consistent as using the same temperature between runs.

I use your routine BTW (switched to Xtol-R last year, and to ambient temp this summer), so this observation covers both of us. A much more consistent approach would be one-shot D76 at exactly 20C.

I would suggest that the variability that arises because of the inconsistencies inherent in a replenishment regime and time-temperature adjustment are both very small, and of the same magnitude as the variability that arises because of the variabilities inherent in a one shot not at ambient temperature regime. But most importantly, those variabilities are quite small, if care is taken with either one of them.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

• Use of replenishing. Replenished solutions are never as consistent as mixing one-shot.

• Ambient temperature development. Any time adjustment is always an approximation, and the results cannot be as consistent as using the same temperature between runs.

Purposefully injecting an element of chance within set and controlled parameters is actually quite interesting, and doesn't at all contradict the principles of how the process is controlled and what is controlled within it. Not at all the same as adding inconsistency.

It's not like going full John Cage. More like adding a little rubato to Chopin.

 

[faberryman]

I hope no novice film enthusiasts who are thinking about developing their film are reading this thread. Let's see, you need to buy a developing tank and reel, a graduated cylinder, a plastic stirring rod, a $300 certified process thermometer, and have a plumber come out and install a themoregulated faucet on your kitchen sink. And then there is measuring the pH and specific gravity of your replenished developer. (Hint: recommend one-shot developer.) If someone had told me that when I got started, I would not have gotten started. If I had not gotten started, I would have missed out on receiving a Guggenheim and having my work accepted in the permanent collection of the MOMA. Oh, wait...

 

[Vaughn]

Purposefully injecting an element of chance within set and controlled parameters is actually quite interesting, and doesn't at all contradict the principles of how the process is controlled and what is controlled within it. Not at all the same as adding inconsistency..

.

Cool...for me, the element of chance increases the chance of discovery.
So much depends on a person's personality style. So many ways of achieving the similar goals.

 

[faberryman]

...Trampoline agitation...

I had a guy from the university come out with a stop motion camera. He worked with me for a week or so to make sure I got to 180 degrees when I inverted the tank during agitation. It was basically muscle memory after that.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Here's my take : people who get sloppy with one variable might get away with that, but otherwise tend to get sloppy with another variable, and yet another, and soon it all adds up to a serious visible quality loss, and they end up blaming the film or paper or equipment manufacturer for their own lack of discipline. But people who are willing to optimize things one step at at time generally end up in the long run doing things far more efficiently and easier, and most cost-effective, than the shoot-from-the-hip types. You get out what you first put in. And the variable of temperature control is one of these integral steps.

When I started out, I was VERY glad to have invested in some nice truly reliable gear up front and avoid re-buying as much as possible (I sure wasn't rich), and to have known some of these things. As it was, I did my best and quickly sped out of the beginner category and into serious recognition as a color printer. Everyone is free to follow their own heart. But going out and buying a used car with three bald temporary spare tires on it doesn't really solve much. It will just frustrate you. And learning how to tightly and consistently control solution temperatures is one of the first things one needs to learn in darkroom work, especially with respect to film development. There are numerous ways to do that, and some of them are quite economical. But sloppiness of attitude will just come right back and bite you in the butt. You won't save any time or money that way. Just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they are untrainable.

So lets see, faberryman .... The typical beginner I encounter goes out and spends several thousand dollars on a camera and his mandatory wish list of top notch lenses, then jumps in their Lexus to drive to a shoot location, or on some plane to an exotic destination, but then gripes about spending ten bucks on a thermometer? Yep, that is typical. Then they come back screaming how lousy the film is. Also typical. You're only as good as your weakest link. Save some of that money for the darkroom, and learn how to use that kind of equipment well too. Otherwise, it's false economy.

 

[Vaughn]

Not everyone lives in the Bay Area, Drew. Most beginners don't, and don't drive a Lexus.

But agreed -- those Lexus (or similar) drivers do seem to make the most noise and try to be the most visible...and photographing within a few hours of the Bay Area, one is going to notice them!

And the temperature is always spot on. How can it be any different than what it is?!

 

[faberryman]

Here's my take : people who get sloppy with one variable might get away with that, but otherwise tend to get sloppy with another variable, and yet another, and soon it all adds up to a serious visible quality loss, and they end up blaming the film or paper or equipment manufacturer for their own lack of discipline.

The foregoing is a good example of the logical fallacy of slippery slope. It sort of reminds me of the classic 1936 film Reefer Madness.

But going out and buying a used car with three bald temporary spare tires on it doesn't really solve much.

It makes a lot of sense if it is all you can afford and you need to get to work so you can earn enough money to pay the rent, buy food, and start saving for three good tires.

So lets see, faberryman .... The typical beginner I encounter goes out and spends several thousand dollars on a camera and his mandatory wish list of top notch lenses, then jumps in their Lexus to drive to a shoot location, or on some plane to an exotic destination, but then gripes about spending ten bucks on a thermometer? Yep, that is typical. Then they come back screaming how lousy the film is. Also typical. You're only as good as your weakest link. Save some of that money for the darkroom, and learn how to use that kind of equipment well too. Otherwise, it's false economy.

I have no idea where you encounter the typical beginners you described, but I think you need to get out more. Spend an afternoon talking to the young people down at Glass Key Photo in your home town. Some will be buying their first film camera and having a hard time deciding whether to buy the one for $100 they budgeted for or splurge for the one with the faster lens for $150. Others will be picking up film and darkroom supplies. Of course, you wouldn't want to buy your film there. I don't think the refrigerator where they keep their film maintains temperature with 1/10th degree accuracy.

 

[Steve Roberts]

I hope that most of us keep notes of how each film is processed.

Only in special circumstances, such as processing for b/w slides. Otherwise my notes go no further than "Pentax LX Feb 2021" or whatever.
Steve

 

[takilmaboxer]

My wife owns a junk store and has sold a bunch of old cameras, including folders, to students, for under $50. They drive old beat up cars and live in the student ghetto. They are fascinated by film and soak up all the advice I can give them, which includes, be consistent in your processing and keep the developer temperature consistent from roll to roll. None of them drive fancy cars or have Blads.
There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, more boring than rich old white guys who own fancy cameras and Lexuses, and look down on the rest of us. Those kids are the future. Respect them!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I would suggest that the variability that arises because of the inconsistencies inherent in a replenishment regime and time-temperature adjustment are both very small, and of the same magnitude as the variability that arises because of the variabilities inherent in a one shot not at ambient temperature regime. But most importantly, those variabilities are quite small, if care is taken with either one of them.

As Matt stated and I stated earlier be consistent with the start and end of the timing as well as all the other things you do.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My wife owns a junk store and has sold a bunch of old cameras, including folders, to students, for under $50. They drive old beat up cars and live in the student ghetto. They are fascinated by film and soak up all the advice I can give them, which includes, be consistent in your processing and keep the developer temperature consistent from roll to roll. None of them drive fancy cars or have Blads.
There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, more boring than rich old white guys who own fancy cameras and Lexuses, and look down on the rest of us. Those kids are the future. Respect them!

I do not own a Lexus. My cars are over twenty years old. And I respect anyone interested in learning more about photography and improving.