How much will Kodak film prices increase?

[Arthurwg]

I believe that 120 Tri-X is now over $7.00 at B&H. I'm going to try Foma, which now sells for around $4.50.

 

[removedacct1]

I believe that 120 Tri-X is now over $7.00 at B&H. I'm going to try Foma, which now sells for around $4.50.

Tri-X 120 rolls are in fact $6.99 each (in a pro pack of 5) at B&H

 

[pentaxuser]

Well as it is almost Christmas then as Tiny Tim said in that famous story "God bless us , every one ". Not sure which role KA will play in this version of "A Christmas Carol. Certainly the ending remains unknown. In this story do all 3 parties(EK, KA and consumers) (a) do well when New Year's morn breaks to herald the bright new future (b) all 3 do badly or (c) some of the 3 parties do badly while others do well?

The outcome is yet to be revealed but may not have as cosy an outcome as the Andy Williams Christmas shows where even the bear got his milk and cookies .

pentaxuser

 

[138S]

it sells only to distributors, who bear the substantial costs associated with shipping (and any warehousing) of product.

There are no warehousing substantial costs... 1Kg of film boxes has a value ranging from $120 to $500, warehousing of milk is at least 100 times more expensive by value unit.

____

Today distribution is very efficient, a single warehouse in the middle may distribute to big retailers as Amazon, B&H, Adorama, Freestyle, Fotoimpex...

____

In the Kodak case we have Alaris in the middle, adding no value to the supply chain but taking money to recover debts from the past.

.

 

[MattKing]

In the Kodak case we have Alaris in the middle, adding no value to the supply chain but taking money to recover debts from the past.

Actually, Kodak Alaris received book debts as part of the bankruptcy settlement. That is why well their net profits before taxes are good, their application of the debts to those profits result in a "book" loss - thus no taxes.
And as for "no value" - Eastman Kodak bears no costs related to promotion, merchandising, customer service or any other costs related to actually selling the product to distributors across the world. Kodak Alaris employs all the people doing that work, and bears all those costs.
Eastman Kodak has very, very few employees dealing with film, and almost all of them deal with motion picture film.
And the distribution costs are enormous, because there are so many distributors across the world buying from Kodak Alaris and dealing with all the local issues.
My favourite local retailer is forced to buy Kodak product from multiple distributors, because different products are sold by those different distributors at markedly different prices and, more importantly, the minimum order requirements and lead time necessary to fill orders vary tremendously between those distributors. For a while at least, that retailer was buying the Kodak consumer film from a distributor that sold a large variety of non-film products into the grocery and drug store market, because the minimum order quantities, price and speed of fulfilling the orders was far better than the photographic oriented distributors, for whom film and chemicals are almost an afterthought.

 

[mshchem]

The comparison to distribution of milk is a good example. Professional films require temperature regulated storage and transportation. Every box has an expiration date. Retailers have to balance bulk purchases at a discount vs. outdated film no one wants.

 

[MattKing]

The comparison to distribution of milk is a good example. Professional films require temperature regulated storage and transportation. Every box has an expiration date. Retailers have to balance bulk purchases at a discount vs. outdated film no one wants.

It would be a great comparison if the volumes for film were as high as for milk, and if the shelf lives were similar.
In film's heyday, at least the volumes were closer.
In any event though, the production, distribution, sale and consumption of milk is far simpler and far cheaper than the same process for film.
As I understand it, Eastman Kodak doesn't begin the manufacturing process until they have confirmed orders from Kodak Alaris. I expect that Kodak Alaris doesn't place those orders until they have confirmed orders from their customers, the distributors they deal directly with. Some of those distributors sell partly to retailers, and partly to other distributors.
Once Eastman Kodak has the confirmed orders in hand, they place their orders with their constituent ingredient/parts suppliers. Those suppliers put the Eastman Kodak orders in their queues. For the constituent parts that require synthesis, that process can take, in some cases, several months. So an order for a particular ingredient needed by Eastman Kodak may be placed in the spring but not filled until the following fall or winter.
Once Eastman Kodak has all the necessary component parts, they attend to manufacture, quality control checking, confectioning, further quality control checking, and final packaging. Then, and only then is the product available for distribution.
None of the parties involved are prepared or able to keep meaningful amounts of capital tied up in inventoried stock - not the retailers, the sub-distributors, the distributors, Kodak Alaris or Eastman Kodak. Large amounts of unsold inventory, and associated borrowing charges, will lead swiftly to (another) bankruptcy.

 

[mshchem]

OK, then maybe, free range, miniature, mountain goat milk.

 

[Agulliver]

Amongst all the noise, I think I am going to listen most to Henning and MattKing. They seem to know a lot more about the industry and the actual process of manufacturing and distributing camera film than I do. At my end, I know that the camera shops who's owners/staff I speak to describe "symptoms" which are in line with what Henning and MattKing report.

 

[Ste_S]

If you want to help moderate price increases, help keep volumes consistent and increasing by buying and using film.

Therein lies the problem. I, and I suspect others, will decrease their Kodak film usage due to price rises.
£30 now for a roll of 35mm Portra 400 and to get it dev'd and scanned at a lab.

 

[mshchem]

Therein lies the problem. I, and I suspect others, will decrease their Kodak film usage due to price rises.
£30 now for a roll of 35mm Portra 400 and to get it dev'd and scanned at a lab.

I agree, film has become a luxury good. Low volumes drive high prices every step of the way. I have a freezer full of film. Ilford has a better business model than Kodak Alaris, IMHO.

 

[Agulliver]

As the saying goes, "you pays your money, and takes your choice".

For colour film I buy mostly Kodak because I currently like several specific Kodak products (Color Plus, Ultramax 400 and Ektar). I'll continue to buy after the price increase, though likely spending about the same and purchasing slightly smaller quantities. I am fortunate in that I pass a decent shop with an in-house mini lab pretty much every working day as I return home, and can get dev and scan for £4 for 135 or 120. Changing to this lab has cut my total colour photography costs down far more than any decrease in film prices might have.

I'm not exactly cheering the price increase but I see it's necessary. I'd rather have C41 colour films in 10 years time than none at all, thanks.

 

[pentaxuser]

It really all goes back to whether this seemingly disproportionate price rise was largely driven by necessity to fund the investment needed and is this a one-off and in the future Kodak prices will largely be governed by "normal " factors that will increase all film prices no matter who makes them.

If Kodak film is "your thing" then it may mean "taking the hit" only once but I remain to be convinced that the increase is not driven by other things connected to KA and it will have a great temptation to keep on doing this for as long as it takes to achieve whatever goal it has in mind

What is clear is that no matter how novel using film is to the "hipsters" or the Kodak "diehards" there will come a point when enough users cut back on their consumption to make such increases unsustainable.

pentaxuser

 

[removedacct1]

I don't remember if there was this much moaning and complaining when Ilford (and most everyone else) upped their prices by a similar amount about 18 months ago. I suspect 90% of this community will stop complaining in 6 months and either adjust their film consumption, change brands (good luck using that as a strategy to escape price increases) or carry on doing what they've been doing all along. The sooner a person adjusts their attitude towards what are perceived as "undesirable changes", the sooner the return to a happy, productive mindset. I choose to embrace the changes and adjust my attitude to compensate. It seems self-defeating to complain about what I have no power to change, and even less constructive to stop buying the materials that sustain my creative identity - something I consider priceless.

You want your tombstone to read "If only Kodak hadn't raised the price of Tri-X in 2020"? Kind of silly, don't you think?

 

[Agulliver]

Can someone confirm if Kodak had a significant price rise in 2019, along with Fuji and Ilford? Or possibly late 2018? I know Foma also had a price rise.

I wouldn't say I am a Kodak die-hard, I have used Kodak, Fuji, Konica and even Ferrania-made colour film in my time depending on circumstances and what I happen to like. Currently Kodak offer three C41 films that between them almost complete my needs with a fourth being Lomography 800ISO film....probably made by Kodak!

 

[destroya]

i looked at an invoice from 18 months ago for tmax 400 and ektar in 120. they are the same price then as i just paid last week. if you want kodakor any other film producer, to continue to make film, they need to stay in business. same as any other company. to do that they need to make enough money to do it.

 

[removedacct1]

Can someone confirm if Kodak had a significant price rise in 2019, along with Fuji and Ilford? Or possibly late 2018?

All I can tell you is that the last time I bought an 8x10 box of 25 sheets of Ilford HP5+, I paid less than $100, and I believe that was in late 2017. Today, the same product is priced at $129.95, so yes - Ilford had a significant price increase at some point in the past 24 months. IIRC Kodak (and pretty much everybody else, including Bergger) quickly followed Ilford with a bit of a price increase, but I do not recall how much.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

There seems to be an almost £10 difference between the price for TMY-2 120 on Silverprint and Speed Graphic:

https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Koda...400-120-5-Pack-NO-STOCK/product/3813/8568214/ - £46.25 inc VAT

https://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/black__white_120/kodak_tmax_400_120_roll_film_5_pack/14827_p.html - £36.95 inc VAT - this is much more inline with the expected price increases.

Something odd seems to be going on with the prices as Morco now list T-Max 400 '120' 5 packs at £43.00 in VAT : https://www.morco.uk.com/black-white-film/kodak-professional-tmax-400-film.html

 

[Ste_S]

I don't remember if there was this much moaning and complaining when Ilford (and most everyone else) upped their prices by a similar amount about 18 months ago. I suspect 90% of this community will stop complaining in 6 months and either adjust their film consumption, change brands (good luck using that as a strategy to escape price increases) or carry on doing what they've been doing all along. The sooner a person adjusts their attitude towards what are perceived as "undesirable changes", the sooner the return to a happy, productive mindset. I choose to embrace the changes and adjust my attitude to compensate. It seems self-defeating to complain about what I have no power to change, and even less constructive to stop buying the materials that sustain my creative identity - something I consider priceless.

You want your tombstone to read "If only Kodak hadn't raised the price of Tri-X in 2020"? Kind of silly, don't you think?

Ilford didn't up their prices by 30% 18 months ago

Kodak almost have a monopoly on professional C41 and can't keep their products in stock. From a business perspective you can't blame them I guess. As a consumer ? I'll be shooting less.

 

[138S]

Kodak almost have a monopoly on professional C41 and can't keep their products in stock.

if almost having a monopoly then producing less than necessary it's not a bad idea as shortage justify a price increase and higher profits, if there is competition one has to produce enough to keep products in stock.

 

[Sirius Glass]

if almost having a monopoly then producing less than necessary it's not a bad idea as shortage justify a price increase and higher profits, if there is competition one has to produce enough to keep products in stock.

Kodak is running at maximum capacity. You must be a dyed in the wood Kodak hater.

 

[MattKing]

Eastman Kodak no longer manufactures most of the constituent parts of film - they buy then from other sources, and assemble them into the final product.
All the other film manufacturers have been very public about the problems they have had with the availability and price of what they are required to obtain from the supply chain - why would it be different for Eastman Kodak?

 

[138S]

Kodak is running at maximum capacity. You must be a dyed in the wood Kodak hater.

I love Eastman Kodak, but I hate Kodak Alaris. This deserves an explanation.

Today film lovers are mainly enthusiasts, my personal view is that Kodak marketing policy is oriented to short term profits because they have no faith in film, they don't know what the business will be in the future, in fact present sells are a surprise for them, their internal predictions had stated that color film had to be extingushed by now.

So a problem is that rather building a larger consumer base to ensure larger profits in the long term they tend to extract every cent from present users, discouraging new users. This haas been seen in the sheet film pricing.

What happens with Alaris? They are selling their business !!!

See this: https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2019/exclusive-kodak-up-for-sale/

‘Management is actively marketing the business and expects to complete a sale of the PPF business before 31 March, 2019. Changing circumstances may extend the time to complete the sale beyond 31 Marc h 2019 but management is responding to these changes and continues to be committed to the plan,’ stated the Kodak Alaris report.'


OK, imagine you are a Pension Plan that is selling his "Droit du seigneur" on Kodak film commercialization... What would you do ? You have to lure investors and you want a good price for your "Droit du seigneur"...

Best idea is a bet for short term profits, and if this damages long term viability of film then this is secondary.

Film users are enthusiats, they sport some kind of idealism, most don't expect any profit from his activity, but if they feel that they are vampirized then they may drop, so IMHO present situation is dangerous.

Me, I spend less film or I'll simply shot wet plate, but I feel that present policy may be felt as a sort of extortion and this may damage color film viability in the long term, because idealists don't like extortion.

A pallet of film rolls if worth $150,000 (color plus) to $500,000, so there is no excuse to produce less, if market wants film there is no excuse to do what necessary to put film in the market. Hey, this country made the Liberty class ships 80 years ago.

My vision is that Alaris (and others) a have short time priorities (selling their "Droit du seigneur" ) that may damage film survability in the long term. I love kodak film, I hate what can damage its long term survival, and Alaris is a hazard.

 

[MattKing]

And yet, it was Kodak Alaris who were the main motivators for bringing back Ektachrome (still) film, not Eastman Kodak, who sell the motion picture version.
And it is Kodak Alaris who are discussing new films with Eastman Kodak - including at least one film that Eastman Kodak never sold.
Kodak Alaris is a lot like Harman Technology. As you might recall, Harman was purchased a few years ago by investors, because they sought a business that would create long term profits.
The difference - in terms of employees, Kodak Alaris is significantly bigger than either Harman or the film portion of Eastman Kodak, and has a much larger international presence.

 

[Agulliver]

Thank you MattKing and Henning for these insights into the industry. I don't like the price hike, but I accept that it is probably necessary. Film is never going to be priced as it was 30 years ago and we all simply need to accept that. The best we can hope for is that this price increase on Kodak film products helps fund increases in production facilities which will enable the existing Kodak portfolio of films to remain in continuous production for many years to come and even for some new products to come to market. Maybe there won't be any more big price increases for another two or three years, though I am not going to bet anything on that.