How much will Kodak film prices increase?

138S · Dec 30, 2019

destroya said:
wow, 138S, what up? are you ratty mouse re-invented? why so much hate? time to move on from this discussion and let those who know what they are talking about contribute, so other like me can learn from then. please stop spreading your hate.

I love EK and ilford, a lot.

I hate Alaris, also a lot, let me tell way, you buy Portra 160 4x5 at $3.7 per sheet, me, for being in the EU: $7,with standard of living adjustment it's like you had to pay $14 per sheet.

If you had been asked $14 per sheet you would also hate them a lot, isn't it ? Alaris, as a customer, slapped me.

MattKing · Dec 30, 2019

In 2016 the net assets for Kodak Alaris were reported as a $236 Million shortfall. In 2019 the net assets for Kodak Alaris were reported as a $100 Million positive value.
Kodak Alaris' Adjusted EBITDA for 2019 was a respectable $48 Million.
Kodak Alaris has the advantage of some whopping tax deductions that came to them at least part through the bankruptcy. As a result, while they are profitable, their after tax numbers remain negative. However, while the after tax "loss" in 2016 was $184 Million in 2016, that number is down (up?) to an after tax loss of just $40 Million in 2019.
If they aren't careful, they may have to start paying income tax soon!

138S · Dec 30, 2019

MattKing said:
In 2016 the net assets for Kodak Alaris were reported as a $236 Million shortfall. In 2019 the net assets for Kodak Alaris were reported as a $100 Million positive value.
Kodak Alaris' Adjusted EBITDA for 2019 was a respectable $48 Million.
Kodak Alaris has the advantage of some whopping tax deductions that came to them at least part through the bankruptcy. As a result, while they are profitable, their after tax numbers remain negative. However, while the after tax "loss" in 2016 was $184 Million in 2016, that number is down (up?) to an after tax loss of just $40 Million in 2019.
If they aren't careful, they may have to start paying income tax soon!

Alaris can do nothing, they have a vampire at home.

As photographers, our interests are in the PPF section that is controled by Alaris that is controlled by KPP2.

KPP2 is a disaster with 2.7Bn deficit, this contaminates Alaris that is vampirized by KPP2, then Alaris vampirizes PPF and PPF vampirizes us.

PPF can do a great job, but they are in a caustic environment because owners have short term cash priorities that probably do not allow them to draw optimal business plans for the long term.

"The financial report, which covers a 15-month period, saw Kodak Alaris generate revenues of US$836 million, but post a loss after tax of an astounding $192 million. (So for every $10 it made in sales, it lost around $2!)"

They have a vampire at home, lossing $2 for each $10 made in sales... it should be a vampire !!! A really big one...

Instead PPF makes profits, having "royalties" for distribution is a source of happiness.

Alaris sells PPF for around 36 Million pounds, but they do not say how much debt is included in the cake.

We'll see what happens... I desire that kodak products have an good corporative environment to make plans for the long term, a bit in the ilford way for which I have a deep respect.

MattKing · Dec 30, 2019

It is a "loss after tax", not a true loss.
They are just mining the reservoir of tax deductibility that they received as a part of the bankruptcy.

138S · Dec 30, 2019

MattKing said:
It is a "loss after tax", not a true loss.
They are just mining the reservoir of tax deductibility that they received as a part of the bankruptcy.

Sorry, I don't understand it, EBITDA is OK but after interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization they have that $192 million loss...

What the true loss is?

Sirius Glass · Dec 30, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Dear '138S',
with all respect, but as someone who has been working in this industry for quite a long time in several areas, and as someone who has been inside of so far five different film manufacturing factories in several countries, I have to tell you that you
- have no knowledge at all how film manufacturing is really working, neither technologically nor economically, nor from the distribution side
- that almost all you have presented as arguments here is completely wrong.

Latest example ist that:

I've been in the Ilford factory. I've seen the film converting running there, both 135 and 120.
Your numbers here are totally wrong!!
Because: You are only pointing at the 'boxing speed' of 120 film (putting the converted film into the card box). But that is completely irrelevant for the total possible capacity of 120 film converting!
The decisive factor for 120 film converting is the machine in which the film is assembled to the spool and the backing paper. And that process is very complex and needs time! It is very slow compared to the speed needed for putting the film into the card box.
About 6-8 seconds for one 120 film is needed in the 120 film converting machine! Therefore Ilford's real max. 120 film converting capacity is only a tiny fraction of what you have said in your posting.
That are the facts.

Eastman Kodak's problem is that definitely their 35mm film converting (and probably also their 120 film converting) is already running in 3 shifts per day at max. capacity. But that is not enough to satisfy demand. Demand is much higher. Therefore complete new converting lines have to be installed. I have seen such lines: That is absolutely high tech and a very complex technology. It needs much time and capital to build up such lines. And new staff has to be hired and educated to run these lines.
It is not possible to raise this capital from the so far (before the price increase) low margin film products. All film manufacturers have had so far this low margin problem. Therefore Fujifilm has increased prices in spring 2019 significantly (they have similar converting capacity problems), Ilford have had increases lately, too.
You should definitely have a look at the presentation of the ADOX CEO concerning the low margin problem in the industry here:

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, FYI, 138S bases his comment of what he had for breakfast. He is just another posting windbag. Please do not feed the troll.

Sirius Glass · Dec 30, 2019

138S said:
Henning, if you have been inside a factory... Haven't you noticed that they have spoolers working in parallel?

With all respect, there are enough spoolers to feed the boxing machine !!!

If not the line would not be balanced. In series production machinery capabilities are balanced to not generate stocks in the middle.

With all respect, go back to visit a factory and take a look.

Anyway an spooler is paid with the film it processes in two days, so if lacking spoolers...

Kodak probably has dozens of idle spoolers salvaged from demolished plants, in the spares warehouse, so they may not have to pay for them.

Also see in the video at what speed ilford makes 135 cassetes... to feed the spoolers in parallel.

138S · Dec 30, 2019

It was a matter of time...
Finger, sore, attack,

LOL

You made me smile.

Sadly film users community has to suffer the distribuion by Alaris of the excellent EK products.

I hope EK can be rid of them ASAP.

MattKing · Dec 30, 2019

138S said:
Sorry, I don't understand it, EBITDA is OK but after interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization they have that $192 million loss...

What the true loss is?

The depreciation and amortization is the source of the book "loss".
They received those losses - which they can apply to reduce their taxable profits - as a benefit from the bankruptcy transaction. A substantial portion of the $600 Million paid by the Pension Fund to the bankruptcy trustee was paid in order to obtain the benefits of that depreciation and amortization (a bankrupt cannot easily realize on them).
They are making money - the 2019 numbers are $48 Million net profit on a book value of $100 Million. That does, of course, include all their operations, not just the photographic and film operations.
As a going concern, their photography related operations have a value - some portion of that $100 Million. The Pension Fund has the need to maximize the return on that value, just as it has the need to maximize the return on all its other assets, which I believe are worth much more than $100 Million (just not enough to cover the projected future needs of the pension fund). The trustees of the Pension Fund have reached the conclusion that the Pension Fund can achieve more return from the cash from the sale of the film and photography portions of the business, than they can earn from the business itself.

Agulliver · Dec 31, 2019

Sometimes a person can be told the facts from people who have seen everything fist hand.....and still prefer to trust whatever they divined from the dregs of their bowl of Cheerios.

Personally I'm fascinated by what MattKing and Henning are saying, and gaining some insight. I see, through their writing, the difficult position that EK, KA (and FujiFilm) have found themselves in especially with regard to colour film production. The last thing we need is scurrilous rumour. s and untruths being spread. Sadly, it looks like the Kodak price increases are necessary to protect the medium term future of Kodak films. I also remember the outcry and accusations levelled against Fuji when they axed some films and increased prices - really not that long ago...."It's clear! I know it! Fuji exits the film market"...."Someone's brother's dog's walker told me that his sister's friend's dad said that Fuji are cancelling all reversal film...IT MUST BE TRUE!" Really, the "arguments" were no more sophisticated. And now we have the same regarding Kodak. When the explanation is there, explained and quite clear to understand. I don't like the price increase but I see it may be what's necessary to keep the products available. And maybe, just maybe, longer term there won't be big price increases and EK might have the capacity to make more film (more of the same or introduce new films).

Tom Kershaw · Dec 31, 2019

Agulliver said:
"Someone's brother's dog's walker told me that his sister's friend's dad said that Fuji are cancelling all reversal film...IT MUST BE TRUE!"

I think I may have even seen this on one or two retailer's websites in recent years unfortunately.

138S · Dec 31, 2019

Agulliver said:
The last thing we need is scurrilous rumour. s and untruths being spread.

Personally I'm not talking about rumours, but about Kodak Alaris own financial report (15months) and a interview to Alaris CEO Marc Jourlait: "key customers around the world have been privately briefed on the plans to ‘explore sales of some or all of our assets’ and that ‘PPF in particular we disclosed as at an advanced stage of negotiations with a potential buyers’.

These are not rumours: exclusive rights on distribution of EK products are for sale, exclusive distributor of EK is technically crashed, and they are in the middle between us and the film we want to shot, so situation is not nice.

Agulliver said:
I don't like the price increase but I see it may be what's necessary to keep the products available. And maybe, just maybe, longer term there won't be big price increases and EK might have the capacity to make more film (more of the same or introduce new films).

My view it's the counter, film should be cheaper to expand costumer base and to get profits from scale and the lower fixed costs per roll. This is the american way to do things, not monopolies but competition and production.

My view is that optimal pricing policy cannot be implemented because of poison in the financials.

Alaris makes cash in its operations, "revenues of US$836 million, but post a loss after tax of an astounding $192 million." They bear a crashed pension fund that probably will end under goverment protection, debt interest and duties to the fund is what bleeds Alaris to that kafkian situation .

My position is the counter than yours, I see a large film overprice from poison in the financials rather from regular industrial operation, and that overprice is what limits consumer expansion that would allows lower fixed cost per roll.

Look, KPP2 is totally crashed but EK cannot sell a single roll if it's not through them, or best said, through a company KPP2 owns, as the owner is crashed the owned Alaris is squeezed to famine.

My personal view is that KPP2 urgent cash needs is what drives pricing policy into a destructive path. Taking more cash now to destroy future business. This is my opinion, the facts are those in the own Alaris accounting report.

Kodachromeguy · Dec 31, 2019

pentaxuser said:
138S as long as you enjoy the debate then please continue to put forward what seems to me to be good points

pentaxuser

Wow, you did it, you encouraged him to go on and on with this conspiracy stuff about pension plans, robbing the futute, production volumes, cheating Europeans, etc. Gahd, I used to think that APUG was beyond this level. Sigh....

138S · Dec 31, 2019

Kodachromeguy said:
cheating Europeans,

Fact:

62.5€ = $70.2 , B&H has it for $37

what qualification do you think this 190% overprice has?

Also 4 sheets is equivalent to a roll, which would point equivalent 7x4 = $28 per roll. Quite a "cheating", man.

Well, not a cheating, but slapping in our faces for sure.

If you want to know, this mostly EXTERMINATES LF color portraiture in the EU. At least it may be my case.

removed account4 · Dec 31, 2019

hope they jack the prices up enough to make a huge profit so after the holiday bonuses and the limos and
the burlesque shows, and building 38 is demolished ( isn't that supposed to happen in 2020 ? )
they can build a smaller facility and have 1 coating machine ( following ilford's lead ) so they'll not be held hostage
by the movie industry. its easy to complain about cost of materials, people have been complaining for decades about the price of photo supplies.
for all the complainers i'd suggest start making calotypes+salt prints. making one's own materials and inconsistent products will give one a greater
appreciation for ready-made film.

MattKing · Dec 31, 2019

At the end of 2016, the UK Kodak Pension Plan had assets of 747 Million pounds. In the period between 2014 and 2016 it received from Kodak Alaris $75 Million in interest and capital payments. (apologies for mixing the currencies).
At the time of the bankruptcy (2013), the shortfall in the Pension Plan was approximately 1.8 Billion pounds. As of September 2018 the shortfall had been reduced to 1.4 Billion pounds.
Quoting the plan's trustees in 2018:
“Kodak Alaris is doing well, but not well enough to support the Plan in the long term,” the trustees said in the communication. “The most likely outcome is that the Plan will in due course move into the Pension Protection Fund.”
The Pension Protection Plan is expected to operate Kodak Alaris as a going concern, whether or not appropriate value can be obtained from the sale of some of its assets (the assets involving photography).
I repeat - Kodak Alaris sells its products to distributors around the world at exactly the same price. Issues of shipping costs, import costs and distributor efficiencies are what brings rise to wildly varying retail prices.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 31, 2019

Agulliver said:
Sometimes a person can be told the facts from people who have seen everything fist hand.....and still prefer to trust whatever they divined from the dregs of their bowl of Cheerios...

If you pursue that line of discussion further, considering its applicability to matters political, this thread might end up in the Soap Box.

138S · Dec 31, 2019

MattKing said:
At the time of the bankruptcy (2013), the shortfall in the Pension Plan was approximately 1.8 Billion pounds. As of September 2018 the shortfall had been reduced to 1.4 Billion pounds.

KPP2 reduces its shortfall by increasing debt in its subsidiaries. They suck from Alaris its profit plus $192 million in 15 months...

Loading a subsidiary with debt can be an strategy for selling it, as the cash required for the acquisition is lower, and this finances the purchase for the new owner, it makes all easier.

MattKing said:
Kodak Alaris sells its products to distributors around the world at exactly the same price. Issues of shipping costs, import costs and distributor efficiencies are what brings rise to wildly varying retail prices.

Amazon has the Portra 160 4x5-10 box at $73 in the EU...

By no means EU taxes and customs cannot explain a 200% overproce vs USA, this never happened before.

If I was Alaris planing an strong price increase I would test market response in a secondary market (EU) before, perhaps this may explain it.

138S · Dec 31, 2019

jnantz said:
i'd suggest start making calotypes+salt prints. making one's own materials and inconsistent products will give one a greater
appreciation for ready-made film.

Autochromes, John, autochromes... yeah !

https://www.google.com/search?q=aut...CBAQAw&biw=2133&bih=1103#imgrc=lZs5XpgbgxG2zM:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...hUKEwifps_qreDmAhVE3IUKHR8nAjkQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

We should make a move in that direction...

That price increase is an opportunity made of pure gold.

removed account4 · Dec 31, 2019

138S said:
Autochromes, John, autochromes... yeah !

https://www.google.com/search?q=aut...CBAQAw&biw=2133&bih=1103#imgrc=lZs5XpgbgxG2zM:

We should to make a move in that direction...

yeah 138S autochromes would be good
but the secrets died with the brothers-light ..
and sadly it was so super complicated that a regular old
camera user with a head on their shoulders might have troubles with
you know random potato starch, lamp black, violet candy, and a bunch of pixie-dust
( and that doesn't count the development process, more pixie dust for that too ).
that's why i suggested the calotype/salt prints not too too complicated but still time consuming
and riddled with little things that can make one kind of lose their minds and realize what a gift it is,
to have EK or HT, SH, FM, PW, FP, SV, AD or anyone else make film for us to use.
i mean sure 4x5 film might be 2$ a sheet, a roll of 120 might be $7 and a 36exp 135 might be $6
but its consistent and not ISO .25, and ... you can make enlargements

yeah those autochromes would be nice. >looking for a fai as i type this<

138S · Dec 31, 2019

jnantz said:
but the secrets died with the brothers-light ..

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/autochrome-rgb-printing.150706/#post-1967906

jnantz said:
you know random potato starch

It is well know the right potato type and how it has to be grown. Simply we have to keep secret that we are growing potatoes and not cannabis, if not we can be brought to a psychiatric institution (dement potato smokers section)

Adrian Bacon · Dec 31, 2019

138S said:
Amazon has the Portra 160 4x5-10 box at $73 in the EU...

Amazon is not a good indicator of overall pricing for a given region. There are many third party sellers on Amazon and because Amazon typically takes at least 15% off the top of the sale price, the prices on Amazon are generally higher (by at least 15%) than what you would otherwise find elsewhere. Amazon also has a very customer friendly return policy which allows returns and full refunds, even if the items are damaged and can’t be resold, and/or are never even returned. All the customer has to do is complain and they get their money back, regardless of whether they returned the product. Smart Amazon sellers factor this into their pricing.

removed account4 · Dec 31, 2019

138S said:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/autochrome-rgb-printing.150706/#post-1967906
It is well know the right potato type and how it has to be grown. Simply we have to keep secret that we are growing potatoes and not cannabis, if not we can be brought to a psychiatric institution (dement potato smokers section)

pentaxuser · Dec 31, 2019

[QUOTE="jnantz, post: 2239531, member: 668"
i mean sure 4x5 film might be 2$ a sheet, a roll of 120 might be $7 and a 36exp 135 might be $6
[/QUOTE]

To we Europeans prices like those above would leave us with the kind of "stars in our eyes and vision of Walt's fairy tale castle with the famous "when you wish upon a start" song.

pentaxuser

GLS · Dec 31, 2019

Adrian Bacon said:
prices on Amazon are generally higher (by at least 15%) than what you would otherwise find elsewhere

This isn't my experience at all. In the UK, prices for most films stocks are lower on Amazon than anywhere else. There are sometimes exceptions here and there, but that is the clear general trend.

How much will Kodak film prices increase?

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