How much D-76 1:1 do I need to develop 2 rolls in one reel? How about 2 rolls in 2 reels (4 rolls)?

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

(120 film) So the bottom of my Patterson tank says each 120 film uses 500mL of fluid. I know if I stack two reels on top of each other, each with one roll of film, I will need 1000mL to drench both reels in developer up to the top of the tank.

However, what about if I wound up two rolls in ONE reel? 500mL of D-76 1:1 would physically cover the reel but would it properly develop both films?

How about two 120 rolls in TWO reels (so four rolls of film total in the tank), would 1000mL still be enough? I'm trying to develop four rolls in one tank because developing one roll at a time is too slow. So I'm wondering do I need 2000mL (which is beyond capacity of tank) or would everything be fine just as long as I fill the tank all the way up?

Please let me know -- thanks!

Peltigera · Aug 11, 2016

If you are using stock strength D76 covering the reels will be fine. So will D76 diluted 1+1. Diluted 1+3 might be an issue.

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

Yes sorry forgot to mention it's D-76 1:1! So if I put four rolls in one tank, with two rolls a reel - just covering everything up all should work fine you're saying? Thanks!!!

Lachlan Young · Aug 11, 2016

Ilford says to use a minimum 100ml of developer stock solution per 80 sq in of film - ie per 135-36/ 120 film. In other words, 250ml of developer stock mixed 1:1 with water to make 500ml will be fine for 2 rolls of 120.

darkroommike · Aug 11, 2016

Paterson 120 reels require approximately 600mL (well 20 ounces anyway) not 500mL.

cliveh · Aug 11, 2016

Do not roll two films onto one reel.

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

darkroommike said:
Paterson 120 reels require approximately 600mL (well 20 ounces anyway) not 500mL.

Thats not what mine says:

Lachlan Young said:
Ilford says to use a minimum 100ml of developer stock solution per 80 sq in of film - ie per 135-36/ 120 film. In other words, 250ml of developer stock mixed 1:1 with water to make 500ml will be fine for 2 rolls of 120.

Is just confusing because they say use that much for one roll but never say how much to use if you wind two rolls into one reel! Since i'm adding more tape and more surface area within the same volume of liquid, would it be okay? So thanks for confirmation!

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

cliveh said:
Do not roll two films onto one reel.

How come? I've done it before and it worked fine, just forgot how much I used.

Lachlan Young · Aug 11, 2016

moodlover said:
Is just confusing because they say use that much for one roll but never say how much to use if you wind two rolls into one reel! Since i'm adding more tape and more surface area within the same volume of liquid, would it be okay? So thanks for confirmation!

You're overthinking this - if you can develop 2 rolls of 135 in a tank, you can develop 2 rolls of 120 - both equal the same surface area to all intents & purposes. There are no issues with putting 2 rolls of 120 onto a Paterson reel - I do it routinely. I've never had any issue with 4 rolls of 120 in 1000ml of ID11 at 1:1 that could be attributed to the developer.

Luis-F-S · Aug 11, 2016

cliveh said:
Do not roll two films onto one reel.

+1

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

"+1" doesnt really contribute anything to this discussion without any reasoning when I've successfully done it before...

Please dont tell me not to do it just because you may be incapable of doing so, thank you.

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
You're overthinking this - if you can develop 2 rolls of 135 in a tank, you can develop 2 rolls of 120 - both equal the same surface area to all intents & purposes. There are no issues with putting 2 rolls of 120 onto a Paterson reel - I do it routinely. I've never had any issue with 4 rolls of 120 in 1000ml of ID11 at 1:1 that could be attributed to the developer.

Thanks man, good to hear someone else has done this before and can confirm!

cliveh · Aug 11, 2016

moodlover said:
"+1" doesnt really contribute anything to this discussion without any reasoning when I've successfully done it before...

Please dont tell me not to do it just because you may be incapable of doing so, thank you.

You may have done this before and so far had good luck, but the reels are not designed to take more than one film. One day when you do this you may find the second film overlaps the first film, damaging development or fix of a few frames and sods law states that it will be on a keeper frame.

moodlover · Aug 11, 2016

cliveh said:
You may have done this before and so far had good luck, but the reels are not designed to take more than one film. One day when you do this you may find the second film overlaps the first film, damaging development or fix of a few frames and sods law states that it will be on a keeper frame.

No, you prevent overlap by folding the tape at the end of each roll over and making the tape heads meet so they cant collide.

Alan W · Aug 11, 2016

I've rolled one roll of 220 on a reel and used 500ml of developer but never even thought about trying two rolls of 120 on the same reel.You're braver than me.But if it works...

cliveh · Aug 11, 2016

moodlover said:
No, you prevent overlap by folding the tape at the end of each roll over and making the tape heads meet so they cant collide.

I wouldn't have thought that two 120 films will fit on one Patterson spiral, but you may be correct, as I have never measured it.

Bill Burk · Aug 11, 2016

You can physically cover a roll of 35mm or 120 film with diluted D-76 1:1 and still not provide the recommended amount of D-76 stock solution per unit area of film being processed.

All that really means from a practical viewpoint... is that your development time... may need to be a little longer than the manufacturer's recommended development time... to achieve the same contrast they intended you to get if you followed the recommendations.

It'll make a difference (which I could measure because I do that sensitometry stuff - we could argue it might even be within a normal margin of error), but you probably wouldn't notice it or be bothered by it.

You're not starving your film, you're just putting it on a little diet. It'll be fine.

Bill Burk · Aug 11, 2016

Oh, about the two rolls on one spiral? That sounds mechanically risky.

Lachlan Young · Aug 11, 2016

Bill Burk said:
You can physically cover a roll of 35mm or 120 film with diluted D-76 1:1 and still not provide the recommended amount of D-76 stock solution per unit area of film being processed.

All that really means from a practical viewpoint... is that your development time... may need to be a little longer than the manufacturer's recommended development time... to achieve the same contrast they intended you to get if you followed the recommendations.

It'll make a difference (which I could measure because I do that sensitometry stuff - we could argue it might even be within a normal margin of error), but you probably wouldn't notice it or be bothered by it.

You're not starving your film, you're just putting it on a little diet. It'll be fine.

Ilford say 100ml of stock solution per 80 sq in, and the OP is using a Paterson tank which needs 500ml of developer to fully cover the reel when set to 120 - this is a non issue in this case. Even with 2 rolls on the reel, and 500ml of 1:1 developer, each film will get 125ml of stock solution. If you're feeling nervous, you can put 600ml in. Stainless steel tanks are a different story.

Bill Burk said:
Oh, about the two rolls on one spiral? That sounds mechanically risky.

There's actually a decent amount of clearance - the films don't actually butt up against each other - and the film doesn't move around under normal inversion agitation practices.

pbromaghin · Aug 11, 2016

Bill Burk said:
Oh, about the two rolls on one spiral? That sounds mechanically risky.

Butt them end-to-end and use the tape that's already there to stick them together. Easy peasy.

Bill Burk · Aug 11, 2016

I've always interpreted the instructions from Kodak to mean (approximately) 2 ounces of stock D-76 were required per 4x5 sheet of film, which is the equivalent of 8 ounces of stock D-76 per 8x10 sheet which is equivalent of a 120 roll or a 135-36 roll.

Correct me if I've always been wrong but...

Mixed 1:1 according to that guideline, I interpret the required amount of liquid to develop 4 rolls of 135-36 to be 64 ounces, which doesn't fit in the 32 ounce tank that I use to develop four rolls of 135-36...

The data sheet for D-76 explains that you can "extend the useful capacity" by developing 10% longer... (that's kind of where I was going with this... it's impractical to bathe 4 rolls of 35mm film in 64 ounces of liquid when a 32 ounce tank fits them much more conveniently... so I always use the amount of liquid that fills the tank).

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j78.pdf

Bill Burk · Aug 11, 2016

pbromaghin said:
Butt them end-to-end and use the tape that's already there to stick them together. Easy peasy.

I am afraid of Paterson tanks. That keeps me from trying this trick.

Bill Burk · Aug 11, 2016

OK my fear of Paterson tanks might be irrational. Let me explain...

When I used Paterson tanks I had occasional air bell damage. This is very hard to retouch as it becomes black spots on prints. I also had film that wasn't developed on top because the reel lifted up on the central post. This is also very hard to retouch as it makes a big strip of black on one of the edges of the print.

If you fill the tank to the brim, you would solve the second problem I used to have.

I don't know if air bells are par for the course with plastic reels, or if it was just my technique when I was first learning... One thing I tried while still using Paterson tank was to rap very hard. So hard I thought I would smash the tank.

I switched to steel reels and tanks and have never had either problem since. I know I protest too much. I really love the design of the entire Paterson line and still use some beakers (though I occasionally mix up Imperial measures when I intend to use U.S. ounces). But I don't have the tank any more.

Lachlan Young · Aug 11, 2016

Bill Burk said:
I've always interpreted the instructions from Kodak to mean (approximately) 2 ounces of stock D-76 were required per 4x5 sheet of film, which is the equivalent of 8 ounces of stock D-76 per 8x10 sheet which is equivalent of a 120 roll or a 135-36 roll.

Correct me if I've always been wrong but...

Mixed 1:1 according to that guideline, I interpret the required amount of liquid to develop 4 rolls of 135-36 to be 64 ounces, which doesn't fit in the 32 ounce tank that I use to develop four rolls of 135-36...

The data sheet for D-76 explains that you can "extend the useful capacity" by developing 10% longer... (that's kind of where I was going with this... it's impractical to bathe 4 rolls of 35mm film in 64 ounces of liquid when a 32 ounce tank fits them much more conveniently... so I always use the amount of liquid that fills the tank).

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j78.pdf

The more I look into this, the more perplexing it becomes - Ilford don't necessarily seem to give any specific minimum solution quantity at all - and most of the discussion that google turns up simply goes "Kodak states" or "Ilford states". All the Ilford powder dev sheet says is effectively 'ensure you cover the reels'.
I suspect Kodak is being very conservative & I do note that Ilford's time for TX is 10% longer - however Ilford say that this is for a target G-bar of 0.62 & as far as I can find, Kodak don't state target gamma in anything other than the XTOL datasheet. I cannot say that I've ever noticed any shortcomings in contrast. I'd be interested to see what testing finds - especially given how little hard data the manufacturers seem to give & the general preponderance of ID-11/ D76 1:1 in teaching/ communal/ home darkroom environments.

I've never had any issues of any sort with Paterson tanks apart from people mangling the reels by forcing them together wrongly - nor have I had issues with the reels moving, nor an air bell. Proper, decisive agitation makes all the difference in my experience. That's not to say I wouldn't use stainless reels - Hewes will make them for the Paterson tanks - the ability to heat dry them is very handy.

eddie · Aug 11, 2016

I've done it with Jobo reels, but only once (had about 60 rolls to develop). While it worked, I abandoned the practice, as I found it to be a false time saver. Considering the amount of time it took to shoot that many rolls ( travel/ wandering about) I felt more comfortable with the one roll/ one reel regimen. For the 10-15 minutes you'd save by doing one run instead of two, I don't think it's worthwhile.

How much D-76 1:1 do I need to develop 2 rolls in one reel? How about 2 rolls in 2 reels (4 rolls)?

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