How many people would be interested in a "Palladio" type paper?

I came acrost a box of Palladio Platinum paper, and even thought it was older then me...It printed wonderfully! Its a shame that they stopped making this stuff. I know alot of people like coating their own papers, but how many people would be interested in a platinum paper? Do you think if a company made it, enought people would purchase it for printing? AZO is a special paper that can only be used for contact printing...and it managed to stay alive. I would think a platinum paper would too.

We should try to get a company to make a platinum paper!


If anyone has any old packs or boxes of Palladio paper, please contact me ASAP!

If it existed, I'd want to try it.

I'm gearing up mentally & equipment-wise for pt/pl; but think I'd make the leap much quicker if there were still a palladio paper. Also consistency would be easier. There are of course alot of alternative processes that could benefit from a commercial supplier of papers as exhisted before.

I used Palladio paper several years back and I have a print of Rob Steinberg's on it too. Wonderful stuff that was. I'd buy in a minute if it were still around. Unfortunately, there were several difficulties in the production of the paper that forced the Steinbergs out of the business of offering it for sale. What a shame.

I'd definitely try it out & agree that there is probably a decent market for it.

Daniel Grenier said:

I used Palladio paper several years back and I have a print of Rob Steinberg's on it too. Wonderful stuff that was. I'd buy in a minute if it were still around. Unfortunately, there were several difficulties in the production of the paper that forced the Steinbergs out of the business of offering it for sale. What a shame.

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What were the difficulties?

Steve

magic823 said:

What were the difficulties?

Steve

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The problem was the paper stock. They had several mills produce paper for them but the quality control was lacking. The last time I talked with Sura she told me black specks were showing up only after the print was developed. In previous runs of paper they could cull the bad sheets before shipping to customers but when the black specks showed up after development they had a real problem. They could never get a mill to produce a paper good enough to coat.

That was how I was introduced to Pt/Pd printing. Wonderful stuff. Now, with digital negatives, having palladio paper would just be absolute alternative process nirvana. Yes, the story was the paper stock. Thin, yet with incredible wet strength. Once their main supplier was bought out, there was no other source that could make the stock.

It is little wonder than Fredrick Evans gave up photography after commercial platinum paper was discontinued.

I get great results with coating my own paper so it would have to be cheaper than I can do it--otherwise no.

If it was more expensive I would still buy a box or two to try it out, though.

I would probably try it.

Palladio was great: and if it cost more money, it sure cost a lot less time.

don

I would certainly buy some... while I enjoy coating my own, having it ready to go would be a huge convenience.

Jeremy Moore said:

I get great results with coating my own paper so it would have to be cheaper than I can do it--otherwise no.

If it was more expensive I would still buy a box or two to try it out, though.

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I also used Palladio when I first started pt/pd printing in 1990. Realize that when they stopped making it several years ago (for the reasons mentioned above) it cost $30 per 16x20 sheet. I can make a hand-coated palladium print that size on a nice paper like Arches Platine for about $7. Yes, I buy my materials in bulk to reduce cost, but that's common practice among the people who print alot.

Sura once told me that in their hey-day they had one client who was responsible for something like 30% of their sales(!) And I believe he passed away...

My point is there may be many people who would "give it a try" if pre-coated paper was available again, I think many of those would either go back to what they were doing before or move on to hand-coating. There is alot more how-to information available in print and on the web and lots more workshops available these days. Platinum printing is not rocket science and money spent learning the process will more than pay for itself quickly compared to buying pre-coated material at those prices (likely higher in today's dollars).

I'm skeptical that such a venture would be profitable. It seems to me if Palladio couldn't survive, I doubt a new company could do it either. They were great folks and made a great product and they KNEW what they were doing.

Kerik
www.kerik.com

Me? I probably would not use it, but I'd buy a whole lot of it.

Kerik said:

I'm skeptical that such a venture would be profitable. It seems to me if Palladio couldn't survive, I doubt a new company could do it either. They were great folks and made a great product and they KNEW what they were doing.

Kerik
www.kerik.com

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Hard to say. B&S have started making and selling carbon tissue and its about $4.25 a square foot. You can make your own for a fraction of that, but its a lot more work.

Steve

It's a lot cheaper in general to mix your own B&W chemistry too, and it's fairly easy, but most people don't do it.

I guess I would be in the "love to try it" group, because it would be the quickest eaiest introduction for me. So I wold buy it, yes. If I liked it though I would soon learn to coat my own, as I hope to do someday anyway. I certainly couldnt afford to pay those retail prices regularly.

Platinum printing is VERY expensive as it is, so I asume a premade platinum paper would cost even more. If somehow, someone could make it for a good price and it be consistant...I would gladly give up coating my own paper!

Im sure the problem with paper stock could easily be resolved today. There is MANY fine papers in the art world that could be used for Alt. Processes.

Lets face it, most americans are L-A-Z-Y (now im not saying LF photographers!), but I am sure many people would use a platinum paper, even if it cost more.

If the cost would be $36/16x20 sheet against $7 for handcoating, you've got to wonder why some handcoaters don't just offer to coat paper for people who want to try it. It could be more profitable, alas, than print sales.

McPhotoX said:

Platinum printing is VERY expensive as it is,

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I'm sorry, but IME this is simply not true. Once you're into doing this type of work on a regular basis, the per-print cost of materials goes way down compared to the cost of buying the 25 ml bottles of metal solutions one at a time.

McPhotoX said:

Im sure the problem with paper stock could easily be resolved today. There is MANY fine papers in the art world that could be used for Alt. Processes.

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Again, I would disagree. Using them for alt-processes on a one-off print basis is very different than a paper used to create a commercial product. Palladio's problems started when the mill that had been making their paper was bought out by a much larger company and they were unwilling to go to the extremes necessary to produce perfectly clean paper (from a pt/pd printing point of view) for such a relatively small client. And Palladio tried several different paper mills before throwing in the towell. They did not go down without a fight. Palladio guaranteed their paper to be free from defects and would replace any of thier coated paper found to have black spots or other imperections. Those of us who do alot of alt-proces work can deal with the impurities that are inherent to most art papers that are on the market on a per-sheet, per-print basis. Either by working around these impurities or retouching them in the final print. Again, a very different approach than machine-coating a large roll of paper.

McPhotoX said:

Lets face it, most americans are L-A-Z-Y (now im not saying LF photographers!), but I am sure many people would use a platinum paper, even if it cost more.

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And most americans are C-H-E-A-P. Or if they are working artists they are P-O-O-R. Can you really afford to pay $30 per sheet of 16x20 for your printing medium on a day-in and day-out basis? I can't!

And regarding printers selling their hand-coated paper, there's a shelf-life issue. Palladio overcame this I think both with their sealed packaging and I suspect something in the formulation of their sensitizer (a secret recipe). I always prefer to coat right before I print, but have printed on paper coated a day or two previously. After that, things start to go downhill.

I'm not trying to pee on the campfire here, just trying to shed a little reality on the situation. Hey, if Kentmere or someone else brings such a product to market, that would be GREAT. Don't hold your breath, however...

Plus, hand-coating is fun and easy! And very quick. Much different than making carbon tissue (which is why people are using the B&S product). I don't know much about carbon printing. Is there a shelf-life issue with prepared tissue?

Pt/Pd printing has the reputation of being expensive, time-consuming and difficult. None of which is true!

Kerik
www.kerik.com

I agree with Kerik.......not that hard to learn to coat your own paper, and it is fun a bit theraputic....it those skinny test strips I detest.

magic823 said:

Hard to say. B&S have started making and selling carbon tissue and its about $4.25 a square foot. You can make your own for a fraction of that, but its a lot more work.

Steve

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That is true, but you must bear in mind a couple of important considerations. First, it is a hell of a lot easier to coat a paper with a Pt./Pd. sensitizer than it is to make high quality carbon tissue on an individual basis. But more importantly, Dick Sullivan got into making carbon tissue as a labor of love and it will be a long time before he recoups the investment with sales if he places any value at all on his time.

As Kerik said, hand-coating is fun, and quick, and not particulary expensive if you buy your Pt./Pd. materials in volume. But of course, it is also true as he said that many photographers are real cheap, so they buy the Pt./Pd. materials in small kits. And if you do that Pt./Pd. is indeed quite expensive.


Sandy

David A. Goldfarb said:

It's a lot cheaper in general to mix your own B&W chemistry too, and it's fairly easy, but most people don't do it.

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Not really a fair comparisson. It's a different scale of cost. If you spend $2 or $20 on a quantity of developer that might be good for say 25 prints is much different than 25 prints at $7 vs. 25 prints at $30.

Kerik
www.kerik.com

Kerik said:

Plus, hand-coating is fun and easy! And very quick. Much different than making carbon tissue (which is why people are using the B&S product). I don't know much about carbon printing. Is there a shelf-life issue with prepared tissue?

Kerik
www.kerik.com

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Actually making carbon tissue is a lot of fun. But the variables are many and it is very difficult to learn how to make tissue on your own without first having seen someone else do it. This is one of the reasons the learning curve is rather steep.

Carbon tissue has a shelf life of about six months if stored at room temperature (72º F and 50-65% RH). If stored in a freezer it might last for decades.

Sandy

Personally, I think Platinum printing IS expensive. I can only afford to buy what is needed in small portions. When I compair how much money it takes to make X amount of platinum prints, I can usually make 10 times that many silver prints for the same price.

Now, I am not a serious platinum printer thought, like many of you are. I print platinum for a change and something new to work with. Because I only print platinum once in awhile...having a manufactured paper would be nice.