How many people shoot 9x12?

[tim48v]

We get occasional inquires regarding 9x12 holders for our SP-445 film tank and we are curious about how many people still use that format (or would if they could easily process the film.) Obviously, we're trying to decide if the market is big enough to justify machining a mold for production holders.

Please take our survey above. We started to try and cover all options with the questions and it got too complicated. Comments welcome.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've got two 9x12 plate cameras, total of 13 plate holders (might be a fourteenth around somewhere, one number is missing from sequence) all with film sheaths. I don't use them much, though, and don't currently have an SP-445 in any case. I do have other methods of processing the film, including a homebuilt ABS pipe daylight tank (requires lots of chemistry for just two sheets) and a Yankee Cut Film Agitank (also requires lots of chemistry, but holds up to a dozen sheets, sizes from 2x3 up to 4x5). I'm still a potential customer, though, as the low chemistry requirement is attractive for when I have up to four sheets to process, and inversion agitation is better than "slosh this direction only", I think.

I'd be fine with the modification I've seen, adding a rail to the 4x5 holder to keep the 9x12 film in position -- perhaps it would be more economical to sell a conversion kit to glue to the existing 4x5 film holders, but with film retention tabs like the holders have, so users can more easily convert the existing holders and have more secure processing for the 9x12 film.

 

[Ian Grant]

I have a few German 9x12cameras with metal plate holders and film sheaths, I don't use them enough. This year I plan to restore a Compact Graflex Reflex, potscard sized and use modern 9x12 holders I have 5 or 6, while I could also shoot on 5x4 i'd waste the edges, it's simple to modify the back to take International sized 9x12 or 5x4 holders..

Forgot I also have a 9x12 Mentor reflex to restorer. Like Donald I also have a Yankee tank.

Ian

 

[neilt3]

I already have a few HP Combiplans that I develop my 5x4 in , that holds several sizes of film and plates , so I'm already covered .
As I have plenty of DDS for 5x4 and the types of film I like using , I'm not looking at getting a format that is only slightly smaller but using the same size camera . Cropping makes more sense if I wanted a different aspect ratio .

I have been thinking of getting one of your SP-445 tanks for when I've just got a couple of films to do to save chemicals .
I'm sure having holders for several formats would make the tank more attractive to some potential buyers .

 

[Nokton48]

I ordered a set of 9x12 inserts when I ordered my SP-445. Using 9x12cm backs and holders makes sense for me, as I get a 9x9cm image on a 9x12 sheetin my Plaubel Makiflexes. I have a lot of 9x12cm Linhof holders and those are quite nice to use. Even old RADA Normalfaltz metal plate holders.

Also I have discovered that I can develop two J Lane Dry plates 6.5x9cm, two in a insert, and they don't move around at all.

 

[baachitraka]

I have one 10x15 plate camera with 168mm dagor and many plate holders with sheaths.

One problem is developing sheets without a proper darkroom (I still can do the development by other means). A nice developing tank with 10x15 film holders will be a blessing.

Recently scored a nice contact printing frame and now eager to make negatives and print them.

 

[tim48v]

Note: you can process most of the odd sizes, both film and glass plates, in our SP-8x10 tray system with even less chemistry! https://shop.stearmanpress.com/collections/photography/products/sp-8x10-daylight-processing-tray

 

[Donald Qualls]

Yep, that should solve the "oddball plate/film size" dilemma, and avoids the scratched film I tend to get when I try to do more than two sheets at once in trays (now that I have a real darkroom, I may try tray processing again, starting with junk images and x-ray films -- with emulsion on both sides, those will quickly show tray handling issues, plus I can handle them under red safelight, so see what I'm up against until my hands learn the job).

 

[tim48v]

Don't know how the SP-8x10 will handle double sided Xray film (I only shoot the Kodak Ektascan BRA, single sided). In theory, it should behave the same as a regular tray.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Don't know how the SP-8x10 will handle double sided Xray film (I only shoot the Kodak Ektascan BRA, single sided). In theory, it should behave the same as a regular tray.

As long as the film can move around enough to refresh the developer underneath, it ought to work just about exactly like a traditional tray -- but without the corners catching emulsion as you shuffle the sheets.

 

[grat]

Having picked up an ICA lens in reasonably good condition, I became interested in the compact "Krugener" style cameras that the lens was originally sold with. I've considered picking one up, but the rarity of the film in the USA, and the difficulty in developing, have so far stopped me. You need a 4th option of "I would if it weren't so annoying". Since I already have an Sp-445, I'd almost certainly be tempted into purchasing 9x12 film holders for it (and buying a camera).

In short, it would be completely irresponsible for you to introduce such a part, and I look forward to it.

 

[tim48v]

Wow, I must admit that I'm a bit surprised. We've had over 300 people look at the poll and only 9 positive replies. That's about 3%, thought it would be a little higher.

 

[neilt3]

The numbers don't mean a lot .
With only just over 10% bothering to cast a vote either way , you have very little information .
9 people say the want it , but 5 others have a camera that uses this film .
Perhaps they haven't got the facilities to develop the film and would also buy one ?
Maybe the poll should have said just yes or no ?
Then it might read 14 want it , 19 don't , granted , those that viewed the thread but didn't vote presumably aren't interested in one .
Still very limited information to go to test the water before investing . Have you asked the same on some other forums ?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've voted in the poll and responded already, but I'll add this: Kodak (I presume) and Fuji sell their film in 9x12 size in Europe. Why it's barely offered in this country, I can't imagine -- but there'd be a lot more market for your SP-445 if color film stocks were available in the USA for the 9x12-only plate cameras. I'd happily shoot C-41 or chrome in my Ideals, if I could get it in that size -- and for that, I'd want/need a daylight processing solution that runs on less chemistry volume (I can just use a dilute developer in my Yankee Agitank for black and white, but dilution doesn't work well in C-41 and E-6).

 

[tim48v]

The numbers don't mean a lot .
With only just over 10% bothering to cast a vote either way , you have very little information .
9 people say the want it , but 5 others have a camera that uses this film .
Perhaps they haven't got the facilities to develop the film and would also buy one ?
Maybe the poll should have said just yes or no ?
Then it might read 14 want it , 19 don't , granted , those that viewed the thread but didn't vote presumably aren't interested in one .
Still very limited information to go to test the water before investing . Have you asked the same on some other forums ?

I'm sure you remember what Mark Twain said about statistics. Oh, wait, you're in the UK. So here it is: "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

That said, anyone who opened the survey and didn't vote is counted as a "Never". Our contacts in Europe (both Morco in the UK and Fotoimpex in Germany) say they sell very little 9x12. The day Kodak introduces a new film in 9x12, I'll order the molds for the film holders!

Maybe what the world needs is a simple, easy to use die cutter like my wife uses to make greeting cards. (Yeah, she spends hours making one or two cards; yes, she knows she can buy them. But then again, you're printing in a darkroom rather than shooting digital, so...)
Anyway, a simple press that could cut 4x5 down to 9x12 (maybe other legacy sizes) might have a market?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Anyway, a simple press that could cut 4x5 down to 9x12 (maybe other legacy sizes) might have a market?

I think it would have pretty much the same market as the devices for cutting 120 or 35 mm film down to 127 or 16mm -- and some of the same problems (in that a well made, durable device will sell one unit to each person who needs it).

That said, I'd welcome the ability to put any emulsion I can get in 4x5 into my 9x12 (and probable upcoming 2x3 for my RB67) just as much as I'd welcome a cross-format answer for lower liquid volume processing of sheet film in a daylight tank (and this would almost certainly scale up to 8x10 more easily than the tanks did). I think a shear would work better than a die cutter or rotary wheel, but that's detail to be worked out after a decision has been made to test feasibility. FWIW, a Crikut could do this job fairly painlesslym, even to the point of cutting multiple small sheets from one large one, if you could make it darkroom safe...

 

[peter k.]

Hmmm... We cut our own 9x12 and 3x4 using a simple guillotine in a dark bag, by locking in the "cutter stop", that is not adjusted ever again. Then fashioned 2 templates. One for the long side cut and one for the short side cut, that the film pushes against. Simple and easy, usually cut 10 or 15 at a time and store them.
Simple ..
Oh yeah, when we purchased your Sp-455 when it first came out, the holders were off, and you sent some new ones.Very kind of you, alas, we reworked them to take four MF per hanger. Thus we also got as a bonus, we could also use it for two 3x4 per holder. Since we were on a roll, we didn't stop there, and continued and made a two 9x12 holders out of Plexiglas. But because of the thickness of the Plexiglas we can only use one 3x4 per holder = 2 sheets for one development in the Sp-445
BTW; we voted and are one of the yes's, and hope you may in fact make a 9x12 holder.

 

[Kino]

I think there is a market for 9x12 developing gear, but its' certainly not in league with sheet film sizes like 4x5 or 8x10.

I have seen a fair number of 9x12 cameras sell on Ebay during my search for plate and film holders. Don't think the demand is driven by interior decorators or steampunk crafters at the prices for which they sold...

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have three 9x12 cameras and do use them from time to time. Been using Foma 100 9x12cm film. I see now that Shanghai GP3 can be had in 9x12cm and many more odd sizes. GP3 would be nice to use in my ICA 9x12cm. Guess I'll have to order some and give it a try. Also, I use a Yankee tank and replenished Xtol for my developing. So cheap and so easy.

 

[SalveSlog]

I recently started using an Avus 9x12. I will keep on using it, but the Jobo or the Paterson tank with the 9x12 spirals don't appeal to me. I've been using the taco method. But 9x12 holders for the SP-445 would definitly make me use the Avus more!

 

[Kino]

You can also have this developing insert 3D printed to go in a Patterson 3+ reel tank:

9x12 sheet film holder for development tanks
by ekech May 30, 2018
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2937591

 

[Donald Qualls]

You can also have this developing insert 3D printed to go in a Patterson 3+ reel tank:

9x12 sheet film holder for development tanks
by ekech May 30, 2018
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2937591

So that's essentially a Mod54 resized to correctly fit 9x12 film. Only it's not $60 plus shipping, if you have a 3D printer and know how to make it behave.

 

[Kino]

So that's essentially a Mod54 resized to correctly fit 9x12 film. Only it's not $60 plus shipping, if you have a 3D printer and know how to make it behave.

As I have stated several times before, you can have it printed by a third party online and shipped to you. Price is variable depending upon your location and the company you choose. Doesn't take much to confirm what i say...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Never said that wasn't the case, but it'll cost much more than the per-gram cost of the filament if you pay someone else to print it for you. OTOH, if you print it yourself you may wind up paying for the filament several times (depending how well you've gotten your printer set up).

Still, yet another argument in favor of owning a 3D printer (starter units are just over $200 for roughly 8x8x9 inch workspace). One of these is on my short list of stuff to get next time I have money to spend...

 

[Lee Rust]

After inheriting a Zeiss Maximar 9x12 plate camera from my dad, it was many decades before I acquired some film and plate holders along with a suitable developing tank. I also found that the Instax Wide film size is very close to 9x12 and fits very nicely into the Zeiss holders. It's time for some experimentation.