how long has your fixer lasted?

brian steinberger said:

Ralph, I thought the idea was to fix for a minute total at film strength (1+4). So wouldn't it be 30 seconds in each bath?

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Theoretically, yes, but one just cannot agitate thoroughly in just 30 s. I use 1 min each but also include the drip-off time.

RalphLambrecht said:

Wow, that's a long sentence! Like I said, if you can't appreciate the difference, I wouldn't worry about it. I see a difference, and that difference is well worth the trouble to me.

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Sorry about the long sentence, sometimes my mind works faster then my fingers can hope to keep up with and they miss the periods.

Lucky you, I'm at the point that I forget faster than I can possibly learn.

What were we talking about again?

RalphLambrecht said:

Theoretically, yes, but one just cannot agitate thoroughly in just 30 s. I use 1 min each but also include the drip-off time.

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So it's more like 45 sec in each with 15 sec drip off time.

RalphLambrecht said:

Lucky you, I'm at the point that I forget faster than I can possibly learn.

What were we talking about again?

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I get that with names, they go in one ear and pickup speed going out the other.

brian steinberger said:

So it's more like 45 sec in each with 15 sec drip off time.

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Yes, I cheat a bit, hoping that some silver halide is being dissolved even during drip off. I like to fix as short as possible and as long as absolutely necessary.

RalphLambrecht said:

Yes, I cheat a bit, hoping that some silver halide is being dissolved even during drip off. I like to fix as short as possible and as long as absolutely necessary.

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I think that's the general idea for paper, especially FB paper, where the longer it's in the soup, the more chemicals soak into the paper itself. For RC paper or film, where chemicals soaking in, are not as much of a problem, you can safely go quite a bit longer, without the image being affected. I use 5 minutes for film, and then give it a good wash, even when clearing times are under 2 minutes, because I want film to be fixed well, and have heard too many stories of what happens when it isn't. I have negatives I processed this way from the 1970's and they are still like the day I pulled them out, even though, when I now look at what I shot then, I realise it's mostly crap.

What I always found interesting is that in 150 years we haven't found a better method then tray processing. Nobody developed a machine where you feed the paper in one end, and a perfectly developed print comes out the other end.

RalphLambrecht said:

Thomas

So, why not try 1+4 two-bath fixing for a minute each? That will be easier to wash out of the fibers.

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i do that ... but more than 1 min each ...
sprint fixer is great-stuff!

john

wogster said:

What I always found interesting is that in 150 years we haven't found a better method then tray processing. Nobody developed a machine where you feed the paper in one end, and a perfectly developed print comes out the other end.

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I used to use one all the time - it is called a colour processor (mostly Kreonite, in my case)

I also have used high speed activation processors for black and white.

MattKing said:

I used to use one all the time - it is called a colour processor (mostly Kreonite, in my case)

I also have used high speed activation processors for black and white.

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I'm thinking something where, I do my composition, take a light reading, dial in the exposure, then feed the sheet into the machine and move on. The result is a nice dry print ready for mounting, coming out of the machine, some time later, doesn't matter if it's 30 seconds or 30 minutes later, because once I feed it in, I move to the next image. There would be a set of buttons on the machine to select the paper, so that it can determine processing time.

It seems within 30 seconds or so, my FB paper (Ilford MGIV) is fully saturated. Does it really matter how long it stays in fixer since it already IS saturated in the first 30 seconds?

I use the manufacturer's recommended fixing time/capacity for film, but always discard at the end of the session.

For FB prints, I always use one bath to half the recommended capacity, for 1 minute at film strength and always discard after the printing session. I keep track of the square inches of paper that I fix. So for example, Ilford rapid fixer 1+4 should fix 3200 square inches of paper (40 8x10 prints). I discard after about 1600 square inches. While this is only 5 16x20 prints, I always cut my 16x20 into 5 strips of 16 inches long (64 square inches each) for test prints. This gives me enough (usually more than enough) to get a very good 16x20 work print, then 1 or 2 16x20 prints more and I'm where I want to be. So half the fixer capacity gives me one finished print. Of course, sometimes a negative just won't cooperate

Hello everyone,

Very interesting discussion. I've never figured out the capacity of my fixer, but I made a rough calculation when I started using FB paper. I use Ilford rapid fixer and mix it fresh (2 liters, 1+9) every printing session, which is only 4-5 times a month. I never fix more than 14 11x14 sheets of FB paper, typically 10-12 sheets.

Axel

It lasts as long as it works

The problem is that you will not know your fixer has gone bad until the photos on your wall start to yellow in a year or two. Considering all things, I would rather chuck it than chance it. But, notwithstanding that, it is easily tested. When I mix fresh fixer (I use ammonium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite and sodium bisulfite) it will clear a strip of film in 30 seconds. Each time I use it, I test it. When it takes 45 seconds, I replace it. I know it is still good at around a minute but I know it is getting full. That is how fixer goes bad actually, it gets full of the silver it is removing. The chemicals really don't go bad. You can be an Ansel grade photographer but if your prints yellow, it is back to school you you - so with fixer, it is good to quit while you are ahead.

tkamiya said:

It seems within 30 seconds or so, my FB paper (Ilford MGIV) is fully saturated. Does it really matter how long it stays in fixer since it already IS saturated in the first 30 seconds?

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It does. Washing efficiency tests show that washing after 2min fixing is relatively easy. Washing out fixer complexes after 2min fixing gets increasingly difficult and close to impossible after a 5min fix.

fhovie said:

The problem is that you will not know your fixer has gone bad until the photos on your wall start to yellow in a year or two. ...

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Unfortunately, it can take a decade or more. It takes a long time until it happens, but when it happens, it continues rather quickly.

fhovie said:

... When I mix fresh fixer (I use ammonium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite and sodium bisulfite) it will clear a strip of film in 30 seconds. Each time I use it, I test it. When it takes 45 seconds, I replace it. I know it is still good at around a minute but I know it is getting full. That is how fixer goes bad actually, it gets full of the silver it is removing. The chemicals really don't go bad. You can be an Ansel grade photographer but if your prints yellow, it is back to school you you - so with fixer, it is good to quit while you are ahead.

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That is a (not completely reliable) test for film fixer. With paper,one needs to measure increasing silver content and keep it below a certain limit.

RalphLambrecht said:

It does. Washing efficiency tests show that washing after 2min fixing is relatively easy. Washing out fixer complexes after 2min fixing gets increasingly difficult and close to impossible after a 5min fix.

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This is great to know, thanks. I guess some of my prints will yellow as I didn't know this...

RalphLambrecht said:

It does. Washing efficiency tests show that washing after 2min fixing is relatively easy. Washing out fixer complexes after 2min fixing gets increasingly difficult and close to impossible after a 5min fix.

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Very interesting.... Thank you.

bwrules said:

This is great to know, thanks. I guess some of my prints will yellow as I didn't know this...

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Yellowing can be a sign of residual silver or residual fixer. It's not that easy, from just looking at it, to say what the processing error or the environmental attack was that caused the print to deteriorate.

RalphLambrecht said:

Yellowing can be a sign of residual silver or residual fixer. It's not that easy, from just looking at it, to say what the processing error or the environmental attack was that caused the print to deteriorate.

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That last statement is an important one, a print can turn yellow for reasons other then fixer, chemicals in the air around where the photograph is stored/displayed can attack a print, even one under glass, using the wrong adhesive to the backer board, can cause a print to turn yellow, displaying it in direct sunlight or an excessively hot location.

From the instant of its creation, a silver-based image faces attack from a variety of sources. Some are internal and essential to the materials photographic papers are designed and manufactured with. They come in the form of chemicals, inherent or added to the paper, the emulsion or the coating. They either are a fundamental part of the paper characteristics or meant to improve them.

Other sources of attack are of external origin. Nevertheless, some are intrinsic to the photographic process and can be minimized but not completely avoided. Most processing chemicals fall into this category. In the very beginning of a print’s life, and only for a few minutes, we need them to be present to complete their designated tasks. Beyond that point, we like to rid the print of them quickly and entirely. Fortunately, these sources of image deterioration are under our control, but no matter how attentive our work might be, unavoidable traces of them will remain in the print forever, and given the right environmental conditions, they will have an opportunity to attack the very image they helped to create.

The remaining extrinsic sources of image attack are hiding patiently in our environment, ready to start their destructive work as soon as the print is processed and dry. They can broadly be separated into reducing and oxidizing agents. Roughly until the introduction of the automobile, reducing agents were the most common sources of image deterioration. Then, oxidizing agents like aldehyde, peroxide and ozone took over. Their presence peaked in the Western World around 1990 and fortunately began to decline since.

While stored in the dark, none of this may ever be visible, but when exposed to light print deterioration is highly accelerated. This is due to increased oxidation of the metallic image silver, caused either by internal oxidants from poor washing or by environmental gases, as found in atmospheric oxygen, ozone, curing paint and adhesive, new carpet, fossil fuel fumes, the resins from processed particle board and unfinished wood.

Image oxidation follows a pattern. Initially, image silver is oxidized into silver ions. Then, these mobile silver ions, supported by humidity and heat, migrate through the gelatin layer and, when the concentration is high enough, accumulate at the gelatin surface. Finally, the silver ions are reduced to silver atoms, which combine to colloidal silver particles. They are brownish in color, but at the print surface and viewed at a certain angle, they are visible in the form of small shiny patches. This more advanced defect is referred to as ‘mirroring’, and it occurs exclusively in the silver-rich shadows of the print.

There is evidence that RC prints are more susceptible to image oxidation than FB prints. One possible reason is that the polyethylene layer between emulsion and paper base in RC prints keeps the mobile silver ions from dissipating into the paper base, as they can in FB prints. In RC prints, the ions are more likely to travel to the emulsion surface, since they have no other place to go. Another reason for RC image oxidation is that light absorption by the titanium dioxide pigment in the polyethylene layer can cause the formation of titanium trioxide and oxygen. This will increase the rate of silver oxidation if the prints are mounted under glass, preventing the gases from escaping. As a preventive measure, modern RC papers made by the major manufacturers contain antioxidants to reduce the chance of premature oxidation. Proper toning and image stabilization practice will help to protect against image deterioration!

This is why I shoot with my Minolta CLE and CL when I am in sketchy places.