How long has Kentmere Bromide and/or fiber base papers gone ?

[canuhead]

Freestyle has Kentmere VC fiber listed, but B&H doesn't, and Ilfordphoto site only has RC Kentmere. When did Ilford kill graded Kentmere Bromide ? It was a fine paper and I hope it's still being made but a fear I had when they got taken over may have been realized.

tia

 

[chip j]

I do beieive it's GWTW.

 

[canuhead]

well that sucks mightily

 

[BMbikerider]

Kentmere has not produced fibre based paper for around 2 years. They are still in operation but have diversified into other products. The company was quite a small concern and bought out by Ilford. The only paper that survived was the RC varigrade and the film. They had already been cutting back on the types and varieties of paper they manufactured for several years even before the take over.

I prefered Kentmere to Ilford because it was at least a stop faster, so printing times were shorter and the tones more on the cool side than Ilford. There was also a significant price differential between the two brands - by as much as 33% in favour of Kentmere, but now they are about the same depending where you buy them.

The paper speed now seems to be about the same as Ilford, as is the tonal finish, so what you are buying boxed as Kentmere, may well be Ilford in another guise. (I have no proof but these are my findings comparing sheet for sheet.) The contrast filtration on a LPL colour head to alter the contrast used to be different to that used for Ilford papers, but now it is the same. I know this is correct because I have the printed contrast filtration factor guide from my last Kentmere Fibre paper I bought and also a box of Ilford Multigrade to compare it with.

If I were really cynical, I would say that they bought the Kentmere company and got rid of their superb fibre based papers, because there was no room in the market for a better product that was cheaper. (Cynical.... who me?)

I still have about 10 sheets of 12x16 Kentmere fibre from a 50 sheet box and about 3/4 of a box of 7x5, (100sheets) but when they are gone that's it!

 

[canuhead]

If I were really cynical, I would say that they bought the Kentmere company and got rid of their superb fibre based papers, because there was no room in the market for a better product that was cheaper. (Cynical.... who me?)

unfortunately, this was my fear and conclusion. if they had no intention of continuing manufacturing the paper, why buy them out ?

 

[Lachlan Young]

unfortunately, this was my fear and conclusion. if they had no intention of continuing manufacturing the paper, why buy them out ?

It's a lot more complex than that - as I understand it from hearing an interview with one of the senior emulsion chemists at Ilford (cannot remember where it is posted, but it's from a podcast from one of the factory tours), they took over with the intention of learning the recipes & techniques over a number of months prior to transferring production to Mobberley, but when their senior engineers went in, they had kittens over the non existence of basic workplace health & safety - lack of machine guards on coating equipment used in low light levels & open reactor vessels were two that were cited specifically. They had to shut the plant down very quickly, then try & re-make the emulsions at Mobberley without the 6 months learning they'd planned on. I recall that the POP went because it presented 'unacceptable risks' to those manufacturing & coating it, Kentona went because it probably needed a massively costly re-engineering job relative to its sales potential. ART300 is clearly a descendent of the ideas of similar Kentmere papers, but on a far nicer base.

Regarding the Bromide, I think it was only a special production for the USA that offered G1 & G3 latterly - G2 was the only stock grade offered in the UK for a long time. MG FB Cooltone is clearly meant as a successor - that its contrast ranges at G1-3 match Bromide can be no coincidence. Making 2-3 emulsions & coating them all at once into one product is much more cost effective than making 3 or more for separate ones & there are clear economic reasons why Ilford had to make this decision - sales & dead stock spoiling on dealers' shelves being the main one I'd suggest. I recall from the same interview mentioned earlier that one of the key factors in the formulation of FB Classic & Cooltone was that they could be made on the same highly efficient plant as FB Warmtone & the Delta films.

For what it's worth, I really like the Cooltone FB, though I know some people feel it's got an overly 'glossy' finish for their liking. Nice crisp, punchy paper.

 

[Eric Rose]

unfortunately, this was my fear and conclusion. if they had no intention of continuing manufacturing the paper, why buy them out ?

To get rid of them as a separate entity.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Senior emulsion chemists at Ilford??? What would you expect him to say? Maybe corporate buyouts are different in the UK, but in this country the only way you would buy another company for further production purposes is to send in your best production people and cost analysis people to make sure it were at least 97%(nothing is 100%) possible to take over for production. If it weren't? You don't buy it. Now, if you are doing the buying for the process of elimination? Then it doesn't matter since you just take what you want out of production and keep in production what you want. So, what do I think? It really doesn't matter, but I just can't believe Ilford blindly bought the company and then found out they had a lemon. Of course I don't know how Brits think and maybe that's how things are done across the pond,

 

[Ian Grant]

The photo side of Kentmere wasn't profitable, the wanted to expand the packaging side which is highly profitable.

Ilford wanted Kentmere's high end OpalJet digital display material, it's all about maximising output of their coating machinery. Lachlan is right on the other details, the health and safety aspects were a major issue to particularly the POP paper which contaminates everything with Silver Nitrate. Kentmere coated it before their Christmas shutdown each year then had to decontaminate everything before the line could be used again.

Ian

 

[John Wiegerink]

The photo side of Kentmere wasn't profitable, the wanted to expand the packaging side which is highly profitable.

Ilford wanted Kentmere's high end OpalJet digital display material, it's all about maximising output of their coating machinery. Lachlan is right on the other details, the health and safety aspects were a major issue to particularly the POP paper which contaminates everything with Silver Nitrate. Kentmere coated it before their Christmas shutdown each year then had to decontaminate everything before the line could be used again.

Ian

Ian, thanks for clarifying that for me(us)!

 

[pentaxuser]

I can understand that there was a case for buying Kentmere even without darkroom paper production but when Ilford was conducting"due diligence" before the purchase of Kentmere it does surprise that there were no emulsion engineers in the Ilford diligence group to examine the equipment such that the Ilford executives would at least have been warned that due to H&S reasons there was no hope of a "period of grace" during which Ilford could learn the tricks of the Kentmere trade, the consequence of which was the hasty assimilation of Kentmere RC into the Ilford stable and the necessary elimination of some Kentmere paper types.

Of course Ilford like any other company could have simply made the mistake of not taking a big enough and skilled enough team to examine Kentmere's facilities but I do wonder whether those on the Ilford tour were actually told the full story.

If the Kentmere factory were in breach of H&S requirements I wonder how the H&S executive were able to overlook the breaches which allowed Kentmere to remain in business?

pentaxuser

 

[John Wiegerink]

I can understand that there was a case for buying Kentmere even without darkroom paper production but when Ilford was conducting"due diligence" before the purchase of Kentmere it does surprise that there were no emulsion engineers in the Ilford diligence group to examine the equipment such that the Ilford executives would at least have been warned that due to H&S reasons there was no hope of a "period of grace" during which Ilford could learn the tricks of the Kentmere trade, the consequence of which was the hasty assimilation of Kentmere RC into the Ilford stable and the necessary elimination of some Kentmere paper types.

Of course Ilford like any other company could have simply made the mistake of not taking a big enough and skilled enough team to examine Kentmere's facilities but I do wonder whether those on the Ilford tour were actually told the full story.

If the Kentmere factory were in breach of H&S requirements I wonder how the H&S executive were able to overlook the breaches which allowed Kentmere to remain in business?

pentaxuser

"Will wonders ever cease"? We will more than likely never know Pentaxuser.

 

[canuhead]

so since my stock of Kentmere won't replenish itself, what paper is close to the look of Kentmere ? Foma ? Slavich ? I know oriental is not the old blue box oriental but is it pretty good still ?

and if someone has a time machine, I'd appreciate if they cld go back and convince Guillemot & Boespflug not to close shop and to continue manufacturing graded Brilliant ?


thanks !

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

s I understand it from hearing an interview with one of the senior emulsion chemists at Ilford (cannot remember where it is posted, but it's from a podcast from one of the factory tours)

The photo side of Kentmere wasn't profitable, the wanted to expand the packaging side which is highly profitable.

Lachlan and Ian,
You are right.
Lachlan, the podcast is from the FPP and the interview was with one of the then Directors.
http://filmphotographyproject.com/p...otography-podcast-episode-123-–-april-15-2015

 

[Ian Grant]

Spell it right - Guilleminot, Bœspflug & Cie I've two boxes of plates next to my keyboard

Foma and Ilford papers are excellent, there's a paper there that will suit you.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

"Will wonders ever cease"? We will more than likely never know Pentaxuser.

Quite so, John, especially as the then Ilford management board have mostly now gone since Pemberstone took over.

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

so since my stock of Kentmere won't replenish itself, what paper is close to the look of Kentmere ? Foma ? Slavich ? I know oriental is not the old blue box oriental but is it pretty good still ?

and if someone has a time machine, I'd appreciate if they cld go back and convince Guillemot & Boespflug not to close shop and to continue manufacturing graded Brilliant ?


thanks !

I'd start with the MGFB Cooltone - remarkably similar in many ways to the old Kentmere Bromide contrast & colour-wise.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'd start with the MGFB Cooltone - remarkably similar in many ways to the old Kentmere Bromide contrast & colour-wise.

I have never used Kentmere Bromide, but I surely like MGFB Cooltone paper a lot. So, I guess Kentmere Bromide paper must have been a very fine paper I missed.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I LOVED Kentmere Bromide, and if they had continued to manufacture it, I would still be printing on it. But, paper qualities is not everything, and I'm happy with using Ilford Multigrade. Based on the comments above, I might give the Cooltone a try.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I LOVED Kentmere Bromide, and if they had continued to manufacture it, I would still be printing on it. But, paper qualities is not everything, and I'm happy with using Ilford Multigrade. Based on the comments above, I might give the Cooltone a try.

Tom,
The Cooltone might not "turn your crank" as they say, but then again it might be just the ticket. I rather like it myself and now that I have it figured out a little better it and MGWT might be all I ever need for my style printing. Do give it a try as I and others here respect your opinion.

 

[canuhead]

I'll probably try Foma or Oriental just to see how they look and tone in KRST. Have used MG FB in the past. Can't begin to say how much I miss graded Brilliant and Kentmere Bromide....

 

[BMbikerider]

It's a lot more complex than that - as I understand it from hearing an interview with one of the senior emulsion chemists at Ilford (cannot remember where it is posted, but it's from a podcast from one of the factory tours), they took over with the intention of learning the recipes & techniques over a number of months prior to transferring production to Mobberley, but when their senior engineers went in, they had kittens over the non existence of basic workplace health & safety - lack of machine guards on coating equipment used in low light levels & open reactor vessels were two that were cited specifically. They had to shut the plant down very quickly, then try & re-make the emulsions at Mobberley without the 6 months learning they'd planned on. I recall that the POP went because it presented 'unacceptable risks' to those manufacturing & coating it, Kentona went because it probably needed a massively costly re-engineering job relative to its sales potential. ART300 is clearly a descendent of the ideas of similar Kentmere papers, but on a far nicer base.
.

I don't think we have the full story here. Ilford would have presented a slant on it to express their views on the situation in a favourable light in that podcast. Before any buy-out a company would have made close inspections of the other company, checked their books and working practices, before even going to their accountants and legal team to initiate the buy out. As for their senior engineers 'having kittens' when they went into the factory I cannot subscribe to that line of thought. They would have been well aware of the situation before hand. If it were that bad then any reasonable company would have just walked away. In my view they wanted that company out of the way.

So instead they went ahead with the buy out and shortly afterwards stopped production of the fibre based paper, followed by incremental price hike's of the remaining papers to the same levels of the Ilford products. If Kentmere could sell their product at a cheaper price why didn't Ilford drop there's instead? Because it was a simple way of getting rid of the competition and making more money out of what was remaining from the old Kentmere factory products. As I said before promoting an inferior product with Ilford's printing paper range too.

Nor do I subscribe to the alleged unsafe working practises in the Kentmere factory. What has been described above, harks back to a Victorian sweatshop! They would have had to adhere to the law governing safe working practises in factories. If it had been that bad there would have been an army of Health And Safety inspectors parachuted into the factory long before Ilford took an interest. I cannot ever recall any controversy relating to unsafe working practises by Kentmere in the media or elsewhere.

I am sorry the whole situation smacks of a buy out and asset stripping the smaller company to ensure that the new owners held onto the main part of the market. We as photographers, both amateur and professionals are worse off as a result. Ilford are not a benevolent society for the benefit of their customers, they are in business to make money for themselves and their share-holders, and in doing just that they have eliminate one sector of the opposition.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I don't think we have the full story here. Ilford would have presented a slant on it to express their views on the situation in that podcast. Before any buy-out a company would have made close inspections of the other company, checked their books and working practices before even going to their accountants and legal team to initiate the buy out. As for their senior engineers 'having kittens' when they went into the factory I cannot subscribe to that line of thought. They would have been well aware of the situation before hand. If it were that bad then any reasonable company would have just walked away.

Instead they went ahead with the buy out and shortly afterwards stopped production of the fibre based paper, followed by incremental price hike's of the remaining papers to the same levels of the Ilford products. A simple way of getting rid of the competition and making more money out of what was remaining from the old Kentmere factory products. As I said before promoting an inferior product with Ilford's printing paper range too.
Nor do I subscribe to the alleged unsafe working practises in the Kentmere factory. What has been described above, harks back to a Victorian sweatshop! They would have had to adhere to the law governing safe working practises in factories. If it had been that bad there would have been an army of Health And Safety inspectors parachuted into the factory long before Ilford took an interest. I cannot ever recall any controversy relating to unsafe working practises by Kentmere.

I am sorry the whole situation smacks of a buy out and asset stripping the smaller company to ensure that the new owners held onto the main part of the market. We as photographers, both amateur and professionals are worse off as a result. Ilford are not a benevolent society for the benefit of their customers, they are in business to make money for themselves and their share-holders, and in doing just that they have eliminate one sector of the opposition.

HSE legislation can be surprisingly lax when the total number of employees is very low - the fact they were OK with flinging silver nitrate around for the POP paper says quite a lot about their attitudes towards workplace health & safety - Kodak stopped making an equivalent product in the 1970s I recall. After a fair bit of digging on Companies House website, the photographic side seems to have employed under 30 employees - hard to tell as it seems to have been run as a Small Company under the umbrella of Kentmere - which has I recall rather different safety requirements than one employing about 200+ people (Harman).

It sounds a lot like Kentmere wanted to sell up the coating business, Ilford wanted the display film ink receiver technology & got the silver gelatin side as a bonus/ sweetener. The price may have been incredibly favourable for Ilford - to the point that they may almost have been paying them to take it away - I recall that the Kentmere factory site has essentially no expansion space to allow for changes to happen without removing redundant machinery.

It should be pointed out that the FB VC Kentmere was regularly being made up until Ilford redid their MGFB range, swallowing the cooler tone Kentmere papers into their range. I have little doubt that if you offered them sufficient money, they'd manufacture Bromide or the VC FB paper as a one-off.

Kentmere's photographic business seems to have hovered around the very low £million of business in the early 2000s - an order of magnitude smaller than Ilford/ Harman I recall - & the cost of buying them may well have saved millions in R&D for a number of products. As ever, things are complicated - Kodak bought Wratten in the early 20thC to get Kenneth Mees & got the filters as a bonus...

 

[AgX]

Kentmere has not produced fibre based paper for around 2 years. They are still in operation but have diversified into other products.

To my understanding Kentmere cancelled photographic paper manufacture in 2008 with a reconstruction of their plant.

 

[MattKing]

Given the nature of the current market for darkroom black and white papers, I doubt that Harman would invest anything to eliminate Kentmere (or anyone else) from any market.
An outdated facility with less than adequate worker safety provisions - sounds like the sort of facility that would have been able to sell less expensive paper (for a while).
Production costs nowadays are only a small portion of what ends up as retail cost. Packaging, marketing and distribution costs - they are relatively huge, and they would be the same (now) for Kentmere and Ilford.