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eddie

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I'm wondering how long it takes you to feel as if you've completely dialed in a new film/developer combination? For rolls, is it 10 rolls? 20? 50? For sheets? The same number? 100? I mean when the tools you use become secondary, you meter/expose/develop your shot, and know what you plan is what you'll get.

I ask because I see a lot of posts where people assign attributes to certain films/developers which don't match my experience with the same combinations. It seems as if they're repeating things they've heard, or basing their assessment on very limited use.

For me, I start getting comfortable after about 20-25 rolls of 120, but I often bracket early rolls, and use that information on later rolls. (I also need about 25 -30 prints, on my paper of choice, to feel comfortable). Still, it's about 40-50 rolls before I no longer have to think about it.

For sheets, it's about the same. About 50 before I feel completely confident in my control of the whole process (ISO/exposure/time/agitation/expansions/contractions/etc.) This is without doing more serious testing, since I stopped working with a densitometer a few decades ago. (I got bored with shooting gray sandpaper, although I did have a nifty film holder which allowed 8 exposures on one sheet of film.)

So, when do you feel your materials are mastered?
 
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eddie

eddie

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As for people assigning attributes to films/developers, most of what I've read is wrong.

That's why I made the post. I don't think anyone's deliberately trying to post misinformation but, I think they're basing their conclusions on very limited experience with the materials. Which, of course, makes their conclusions useless.
 
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I feel confident after about a brick of rolls, be it 35 or 120.

But, it takes many many rolls to get to a point where I don't have to think about what I do, where the whole work flow of exposing, processing, printing, etc just sort of rushes through my nervous system and I react instinctively. That takes a while, particularly with more difficult lighting such as moonlit scenes, or street lights. To build up that confidence of just knowing what to do takes a while.

I don't think I can quantify it, though. I just practice until I feel it, but it does take significant amount of time. To be in that situation where everything is natural is so liberating, though, to be able to focus only on the subject matter, and the rest is in your subconscious.

For example, if you drop me in a moonlit scene with a camera and a roll of TMax, I know that if I meter a 20 second exposure I will need to give it about 25, and I might do one at 30 just in case.
 

omaha

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I'm wondering how long it takes you to feel as if you've completely dialed in a new film/developer combination? ... So, when do you feel your materials are mastered?

I hope to let you know some day.
 

Ian Grant

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Usually just a few rolls of a new film, depends on how different the film is. In the case of Fomapan 100 & 200 I exposed and processed some test rolls to gauge the optimum EI and development times need to meet my requirements.I already new that it would be quite different to my normal processing times.

Ian
 

ROL

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There's too much wisdom (bullshit cough) in this post not to dissect it. :tongue:

I'm wondering how long it takes you to feel as if you've completely dialed in a new film/developer combination? For rolls, is it 10 rolls? 20? 50? For sheets? The same number? 100? I mean when the tools you use become secondary, you meter/expose/develop your shot, and know what you plan is what you'll get.

For me, I start getting comfortable after about 20-25 rolls of 120, but I often bracket early rolls, and use that information on later rolls. (I also need about 25 -30 prints, on my paper of choice, to feel comfortable). Still, it's about 40-50 rolls before I no longer have to think about it. For sheets, it's about the same. About 50 before I feel completely confident in my control of the whole process (ISO/exposure/time/agitation/expansions/contractions/etc.)

A couple of rolls at the most, sheet can take a bit longer. More that that, and I move on to another combo. Life's too short.

I ask because I see a lot of posts where people assign attributes to certain films/developers which don't match my experience with the same combinations. It seems as if they're repeating things they've heard, or basing their assessment on very limited use.

:laugh::whistling::sad:.


... since I stopped working with a densitometer a few decades ago...

+1.

So, when do you feel your materials are mastered?

:laugh:.
 

Shawn Dougherty

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I need to get through at least 50 sheets of 4x5 before I'm "comfortable". A couple hundred before I feel I "know" it. That being said I always expose two identical sheets... 120, I feel I need to use 10 rolls to reach "comfortable." It takes a little longer for me to feel like I "know" 120 film because I am usually trying to squeeze slightly different contrast negatives onto the same roll. And I always bracket one way, an exposure I think is correct and one more a stop in the direction I feel "might" be better.

Sure, there is an incredible amount of BS on the boards... It's fairly easy to pic through it and find the gems if you pay attention. People giving advice to beginners that haven't gotten things even close to figured out for themselves is what bothers me.
 

fretlessdavis

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It took me about 3 rolls of 135-24 to dial in FP4 for all formats. Took me another 2 rolls when I switched from an Omega condensor enlarger to a Dichroic enlarger. So far one roll with Acros and I'm fine.

I start at rating my meter at box ISO, and develpoing at manufacturers times. I'll bracket test shots, and look carefully at negatives. Detail at zone III, mostly black with a hint of texture at zone II. I'll look at my exposure for that frame, and how it was metered, and correct my cameras ISO to give that (the correct) reading. With my old Pentaxes, this ended up being 80, though using a modern Pentax AF SLR as a spot meter, It is dead on at box speed. Looking at overall density, as long as you're not over or under exposing, manufacturer's recommended time is very close to spot on. I then shoot a full roll with that metering/exposure, and will make sure my negatives are coming out like they should. With FP4+ D76 1:1 shot with meter at 80 on my old cameras, 125 on the new, 11 minutes @68, I get negatives that were perfect for my condensor enlarger. It took another couple rolls to figure out the increase in development needed to get my negatives to print at 0C0M0Y on my color enlarger. For this, I took the same shot, and cut the rolls up, pulling out strips at 30 second intervals past the manufacturer's time. Then, it was easy to figure out the time needed to get the same contrast range out of a neutral setting on my color head-- currently 13.5 minutes, D76 1:1, 68 degrees.

Anyways, unless your process is very well controlled, variations in temp and agitation will change things a bit, and it's more effective to just pick a time, temp, developer, dilution, and work on making it identical.

I also have found that once I figured out my meter and processing variables, they transfer well to other films. For example, Fomapan in my old Pentaxes gets rated at 64, but using my new AF SLR, the meter is set at 100. The manufacturer's time + 23% gave me negatives almost identical in density to my FP4+, and in the real world, the small difference makes almost no difference when printing.

I don't believe it when people tell me "Fomapan 400 is actually 200" or "rate you Acros at 50". Film speed is standardized, and not just an arbitrary title. Calibrate your meter to give correct exposure, and calibrate your development to you output.
 

MattKing

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I hope to let you know some day.

The first time is the most difficult :whistling:.

Half the challenge with everything in photography is learning what to look for.

So when you get to the point where you have both familiarity with and confidence in the results you are obtaining in a particular film/developer/process, branching out to something different, is quicker and easier.

The secret is to get the first step before you start the second (are you reading this Stone?).
 

Vilk

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I usually nail it down on the first roll. I guess I've been lucky holding the instructions on the box right side up these past 30 years. :cool:
 

snapguy

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standards

I suggest that different people have different standards and what floats your boat may be inadequate for the next dude. In my case it depends on what I am doing with the particular film. Sometimes I shoot family birthday photos and family picnics, sometimes I shoot big league sports for publication. I have used film to photograph the Beatles and Elvis for publication and tended o be ore seious about the q
 

snapguy

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OOOPS. What happened? It went away. "...about the quality of the film I used." Three test rolls would it.
 

jeffreyg

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I have been using the same three films for very many years : 120 Delta 400, 120 Delta 100 and 4x5 Hp5. I shoot box speed after finding my personal ISO was very close to it. I use two different developers ID11 or PMK pyro. I vary developing times if contrast changes are desired.
I don't recall how long it took but not very long because I followed the mfgs times which have worked very well for me.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/
 

MDR

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Two to three rolls at the most, but I am not that methodical if it looks good after the first roll I stop testing.
 

gone

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I'm always amazed when I read of someone "testing" a developer/film for 6 months or a year. What on earth are they looking for? 4 or 5 rolls at the most does it for me, assuming there aren't any issues along the way. Constantly testing and testing is the same as gear addiction, or G.A.S. It can get out of control and take people away from the joy of actually making a photograph, which is more about nailing the subject, idea, exposure, etc.
 
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Shawn Dougherty

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I'm always amazed when I read of someone "testing" a developer/film for 6 months or a year. What on earth are they looking for? 4 or 5 rolls at the most does it for me, assuming there aren't any issues along the way. Constantly testing and testing is the same as gear addiction, or G.A.S. It can get out of control and take people away from the joy of actually making a photograph, which is more about nailing the subject, idea, exposure, etc.

While that may be true for some, there are others who simply tweak their photographs along the way and are not merely running tests for 6 months. It may take some time to run into N++ or N-- situations when using a new film and developer combo. So while one may be comfortable fairly quickly it may take some time before feeling like you are really prepared to handle any lighting situation with ease. At least that's how it is for me. :smile:
 
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While that may be true for some, there are others who simply tweak their photographs along the way and are not merely running tests for 6 months. It may take some time to run into N++ or N-- situations when using a new film and developer combo. So while one may be comfortable fairly quickly it may take some time before feeling like you are really prepared to handle any lighting situation with ease. At least that's how it is for me. :smile:

That's exactly my thoughts too. As someone who photographs in pretty extreme conditions lighting wise, it takes a long time to learn everything from low contrast overcast lighting, fog, bright sunny days, low light high contrast lighting, to night time shooting under street lights or even moon light. I couldn't possibly learn all that in a few rolls. Reciprocity failure and all that jazz takes a while to sink in too, especially since most manufacturers don't care to publish accurate information regarding this.
 
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eddie

eddie

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While that may be true for some, there are others who simply tweak their photographs along the way and are not merely running tests for 6 months. )

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone can get a printable negative just by following the directions. I'm talking about tweaking it until it gives you better than "acceptable" results, in all of the conditions you shoot it. And, its usage becomes second nature (so the technical becomes merely background).
 

David Allen

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Hi there,

For any film / developer combination I require one film.

The real key to testing a film/developer combination is to use a consistent and repeatable system. For your information, the following is the testing system that I have taught for many years. It is not the only way to approach testing or exposure BUT it is a system that reliably puts photographers (even novices) quickly in control of their exposure/development regime. It does not require densitometers but rather relies on doing things in a practical manner and relies on using your own eyes to achieve results that suit you.

So on to the testing regime. The key to achieving consistently good negatives is the correct placement of your shadows when exposing the film and ascertaining the correct development time for achieving good separation without losing the highlights. A simple and relatively quick way to way to pin all this down for the future is to do the following (WARNING: reading these instructions is more time consuming and a lot more laborious than actually doing it!!):

1. Find a scene with with a good range of tones
2. Using the box speed, meter the darkest area in which you wish to retain shadow detail
3. Move the camera so that you are only photographing this shadow area
4. From the meter's reading close down the aperture by 2 stops or increase the shutter speed by two stops and then expose 6 frames at: the given exposure then +1 stop, +2 stops, -1 stop, -2 stops and -3 stops less than the meter has indicated

5. Process the film

6. Using the frame that was exposed at -3 stops less than the meter indicated (which should be practically clear but will have received lens flair and fogging - i.e a real world maximum black rather than an exposed piece of film that has processing fog) and do a test strip to find out what is the minimum exposure to achieve maximum black - Print must be fully dry before assessing this
7. Do another test strip with the first exposure being what you have selected for achieving maximum black minus your dry-down compensation then plus 1 second, 2 seconds, etc (this is to double check that you have indeed found the correct minimum exposure for maximum black - i.e if your first maximum black time plus an extra 2 seconds give you a darker/deeper black then this is the correct time to use).
8. The time that achieves full black inclusive of compensation for dry-down is you minimum exposure to achieve maximum black for all future printing sessions - print must be fully dry before assessing
9 You now know the minimum time to achieve full black inclusive of exposure reduction to accommodate dry-down
10. Using this minimum exposure to achieve maximum black exposure time, expose all of the other test frames.
11. The test print that has good shadow detail indicates which exposure will render good shadow detail and achieve maximum black and provides you with your personal EI for the tested film/developer combination

12 If the negative exposed at the meter reading gives good shadows, your EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 400)
13. If the negative exposed at +1 stop more than the meter reading gives good shadows, your EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 1/2 the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 200)
14. If the negative exposed at +2 stops more than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 1/4 box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 100)
15. If the negative exposed at -1 stop less than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) double the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 800)
16. If the negative exposed at -2 stop less than the meter reading gives good shadows, you EI is (when metering shadows where you wish to retain good detail) 4x the box speed (i.e. for 400 film you need to set your meter at 1600)

You have now fixed your personal EI but there is one more testing stage to go.

1. Find a scene with with a good range of tones
2. Using your EI, meter the brightest area in which you wish to retain highlight detail
3. Move the camera so that you are only photographing this highlight area
4. From the meter's reading open up the aperture by 3 stops or decrease the shutter speed by three stops
5. Expose the whole roll at this setting
6. In the darkroom, process one third of the film for recommended development time

7. When dry put negative in the enlarger and make a three section test strip exposing for half the minimum black time established earlier, for the established minimum black time and for double the minimum black time.
8. Process print and dry it.
9. If the section of the test strip exposed for 1/2 the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film requires 20% more development
10. If the section of the test strip exposed for the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film is correctly developed
11. If the section of the test strip exposed for double the minimum black time gives bright highlights with a trace of detail then the film requires 20% less development
12. You can use the rest of the exposed highlight test film to fine tune the development time.

YES - it is VERY boring but . . .for the investment of minimal materials and a few of hours you will have pinned down so many variables that it is really worth doing.

Back in the real world, all you need to do in future is meter the shadows that you wish to retain good detail with meter set at your EI and then stop down the aperture 2 stops or increase the shutter speed by 2 stops. In the darkroom start your first test print with the minimum exposure to achieve maximum black (inclusive of dry-down compensation) and go from there.

Best,

David
www.dsallen.de
 
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David, what do you do for night time exposures and reciprocity failure? Does that just come 'automatically'?
 

David Allen

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Well of course it all depends upon whether you are wanting to do hand-held action shots or want to work with a tripod and achieve a full range of tones.

The latter is my preference for night photography. For this type of work, I meter (as usual) the darkest shadow where I wish to retain detail and then place that on Zone III (this means closing the aperture by two stops from what the meter says or increasing the shutter speed by two stops from what the meter says) and then use this as my base exposure and then apply correction for reciprocity failure. With Ilford Delta 400 the following corrections work for me:

5 seconds use 10 seconds
10 seconds use 25 seconds
15 seconds use 45 seconds
20 seconds use 80 seconds
25 seconds use 125 seconds

I then process in a two-bath developer (stops the highlights blowing out). For me this works reliably every time, no need to bracket or play around with push processing. Here is an example:

If, on the other hand, you are wanting to shoot hand-held and capture action you will need to shoot the film at a higher ISO (accepting loss of shadow detail) and then compensate with extended processing in a suitable developer. This is not something that I have done for a very long time as it does not fit with the type of images I want to achieve.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de
 

markbarendt

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Not very long, certainly not as long as many people say it takes. As for people assigning attributes to films/developers, most of what I've read is wrong.

And thank you for correcting me when I get sideways.

As to the length of time, I agree ,not long. In fact in most cases I no longer worry at all.

For example I do remember wondering/worrying a bit the first ever time I shot FP4 (long expired and never refrigerated), I even bracketed. I need not have worried, that first roll produced several nice prints that still grace my walls. Each shot: over, under, and at box speed; was workable. A nice lesson; if one can meters well and can follow instructions, one can have good negatives on the first try.

I'm confident that if I decided to I could be quite competent with most any film developer combo within 3-4 consecutive test rolls.

That doesn't mean there would be no room for refinement. :D
 

MDR

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+1 Mark

Testing for different lighting conditions is a mute point if you use a 35mm roll of film. Walking around in the city with a 35mm camera I can encounter dozens of different lighting conditions and I will take a photo. So I have to find a middleway but not the best exposure for every situation. Mega testing for each condition is fine and dandy for LF where every frame will be developed individually but not for 35mm imo.

When I test a film dev combo I walk around the city and try to get as many different subjects and lighting conditions on film. From this I try to extrapolate the best middleway. So 1 to max 3 Rolls should suffice to get a good handle on the film dev combo.
 
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