How long does an archival print last?

[momonga]

I occasionally hear or read comments that go something like this:

--I archivally process all my prints. I want them to look as good in 500 years as they do today.

Of course, that's not going to happen. 'Archival' somehow has acquired a popular meaning of virtually forever. But, seriously, going through all the steps, proper fixing, washing, and toning, and most important storage, how many years can reasonably be expected from a silver FB print? From what I gather, perhaps 200 to 250 years in dark storage before visible deterioration. More likely, much less, considering most people do not have the facilities (or knowledge) to store photographs. Or they might simply want to hang them on their walls, in which case print life might be very short, regardless of how they were processed or the materials used.

Are there any numbers available? Not anecdoctal (I've got boxes of 80 year old prints too).

And does anyone has any idea of how the contaminated paper used today will effect all this? I know artists in other media are who very worried about this, yet it is rarely mentioned in discussions about photograph print life.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Define the keeping conditions before we continue.

PE

 

[Ryuji]

Conservation experts don't like the word "archival" any more, partly because of the question you have, and partly because the term is so overused and abused without reference to solid basis. That is, the term "archival" is somewhat empty if you get to the exact meaning of it.

So experts use "life expectancy" and specify storage condition for targeted LE. For example, for LE less than 50 years, store like this, and for LE greater than 100 years, storage condition should be tightened to below how many degrees and how many percent RH, etc.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ummm, Ryuji said the same thing I did but in more than 100 words.

PE

 

[Pinholemaster]

When the sun implodes and ejects its outer shell engulfing the earth, who cares!

Once everything is digitized and stored in a galaxy far far away, everything will last forever until forever ends.

News at 11.

 

[Sparky]

can't really argue with THAT - pinholemaster. Though - interestingly - experts at the library of congress are freaking out a bit because digital media are the LEAST 'archival' media out there. Just HOW 'archival' is a medium that goes obsolete and must be copied and replaced EVERY 7-10 years?? (i.e. - digital tape -> floppy disk -> CD-ROM -> the next big thing....)

I posted this link on the RC/archival thread too. I thought it was interesting. The ASTM does a lot of materials testing... and though this one is based on storing plastics at mildly accelerated temperatures - there's a remarkable resemblance to what actually happens during aging -based on the fact that most chemical reactions (incl. aging) occur at accelerated rates with increased temperature. It seems the astm MUST have something similar for paper products, if not photo paper itself!

http://www.devicelink.com/mpb/archive/98/07/002.html

 

[Photo Engineer]

I've commented before on the fact that digital prints suffer from image spread or bleed. This is not widely reported and is buried on the Wilhelm web page. Basically though the dyes tend to migrate with time, like an old tattoo and become blurry. Surprisingly, Kodak products seem to be the best.

PE

 

[Sparky]

PE - is there any cause for concern with DYE-COUPLED silver - i.e. C-prints? Seems older C-prints keep fairly well in that regard (apart from the magenta layer going bananas...!)

 

[momonga]

Define the keeping conditions before we continue.

PE

Fair enough.

Case 1: stored in darkness, cool or even cold, low humidity; that is, the best a competent museum curator can do for a photograph

Case 2: kept in one of those 'pH neutral' boxes at room temperature, Northeast USA climate (hot, humid summers; cold,snowy winters), air conditioning used much of the time in the summer; taken out and viewed from time to time. About the way I suspect most of us store our photographs

Case 3: professionally mounted and displayed in a frame, illuminated by a north light window, same Northeast USA climate

Case 4: stored in an old shoe box, along with hundreds of other photos, none of which have 'archivally' processed, in the attic

I realize even approximations are very difficult to make and only tentative, yet some range would be useful.

 

[percepts]

who gives a stuff. I make prints to be looked at and not to be hidden away in a dark box somewhere so that I can say "Look at me, I'm so clever my prints will last for 500 years".

 

[Ed Sukach]

I posted this link on the RC/archival thread too. I thought it was interesting. The ASTM does a lot of materials testing... and though this one is based on storing plastics at mildly accelerated temperatures - there's a remarkable resemblance to what actually happens during aging -based on the fact that most chemical reactions (incl. aging) occur at accelerated rates with increased temperature. It seems the astm MUST have something similar for paper products, if not photo paper itself!

Elevated temperature testing is certainly common - and widespread through Life Testing. There is an accepted forumla for application here ... I've used environmental chahmbers abd done the calculations - and I STILL don't know how to spell it: "Arrhenius"?

I'll bet PE knows.

 

[Mark Layne]

Humanity ain't gonna last 500 years. In 200 years the human race will be too busy worrying about bacteria to look at photographs
Mark

 

[Photo Engineer]

The dye stability of Dye coupled prints is probably over 100X better than it used to be in the early days of color.

Dark keeping can be wet or dry. A typical test might be 120F/40RH or 90/10 to simulate accelerated testing of a print. Light fade might be at 500 or 200 or 100 FC for up to 2 years of simulated daylight (SANS Simulated Artificial North Skylight). To back it up they are stored under real conditions at RT with and without sunlight. In addition, gas testing is run with SO2 and H2S among others. Ozone is sometimes included.

None of these are inclusive or conclusive though, just indicators, and everyone seems to disagree on what is right.

Only time will tell.

PE

 

[Curt]

Keep it in a controlled atmosphere and it will last for exactly 1023 days. Really no one knows for sure. How long do think they should last and how long do you want them to last? Some technology might come along that would keep them perfect for thousands of years or maybe something will come along and they will disappear in short order, it's anyones guess. Like paint on a house. The can says 12 years but some look great after 15 and some need repainting after only 7 years. Adding a lot of science just pads the guess.

 

[rmartin]

who gives a stuff. I make prints to be looked at and not to be hidden away in a dark box somewhere so that I can say "Look at me, I'm so clever my prints will last for 500 years".

That is what I took to be the point of the thread. Lifetimes based on museum archivist standards are most likely going to be much longer than what most of us will see, even if we use archival standards for all our materials and processes. Most of us take and print pictures to be viewed by family, friends, customers, gallery visitors, etc. The enjoyment that we (and others) get from the results is presumably why we do it. That enjoyment will expose prints to the real world, not the archivist's world.

Personally, I use RC paper washed in my bathtub. Since I am still working on my basic printing technique I am not concerned about "archival standards". Most who look at my prints would agree that a limited lifetime is probably best.

 

[fhovie]

Civil War prints - still look good. Washed in a stream printed on cotten fibers. I would bet my photos will still look good in 200 years - the selenium toned fiber ones anyway. Kalitypes and Cyanotypes maybe even longer. I have documents hand written from the 1600s - on vellum. I have some from the 1700s on cotton fibers. - they still look and handle great. I figure a treasured photo could stay in a family for 10 generations easy enough. Of course - none of that color or digi stuff will last ..... only 20 years ago, we were feeding in programs on cassette tape and penciled cards. Today we have DVD-r - - woohoo - They decompose in about 6 years. Color photos - look like crap in 30 years and that is being kind. Ink jet?? well .... I suppose B&W inkjet on good cotton could be ok for 300 years, but what on digi is worth the effort?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Of course - none of that color or digi stuff will last...

True, but in my hall (lots of glass both ends) there's a B+W digi print of a friend's daughter, scanned from an 8x10 inch neg shot with a 21 inch f/7.5 Ross. It's maybe 5 or 6 years old and fading steadily, but I like the fading effect -- and I can always print another digi print if I wish.

The next big Art Movement: ephemeral images...

Cheers,

R.

 

[eddym]

The next big Art Movement: ephemeral images...

Created by ephemeral artists?

 

[Ole]

The next big Art Movement: ephemeral images...

Too late.

but it's getting a bit unpopular with curators, after an exhibit consisting of 2000 cubic decimeters (AKA "liters") of strawberry-flavored jelly not only decomposed in the exhibition hall, but also dissolved a large part of the floor.

BTW: Ed, "Arrhenius" is correct.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Created by ephemeral artists?

Dear Eddy,

What's the other sort?

Cheers,

R. (1950-20??)

 

[Roger Hicks]

Too late.

but it's getting a bit unpopular with curators, after an exhibit consisting of 2000 cubic decimeters (AKA "liters") of strawberry-flavored jelly not only decomposed in the exhibition hall, but also dissolved a large part of the floor.

BTW: Ed, "Arrhenius" is correct.

Dear Ole,

Hey, that's killer jelly. What was the floor made of? And what did the jelly have in it?

Ephemeral art -- installations, Beuys's stuff (rancid butter in one sculpture, if I recall correctly) -- hasn't taken off in photography yet, as far as I know.

I was thinking of really badly fixed prints, poorly washed, sold at a huge premium.The archival version would be $1000, the 'fine art' version' (to be displayed alongside), $10,000.

Oh, bugger, I've just given away a career...

Cheers,

R

 

[Photo Engineer]

One-of-a-kind photos. They last for your lifetime and no longer, about 40 years. Fine art at its highest cost all the way around.



PE

 

[Roger Hicks]

One-of-a-kind photos. They last for your lifetime and no longer, about 40 years.

Dear PE,

Not that long. You want to be able to sell them a replacement...

Cheers,

R.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Roger;

If it is one-of-a-kind, I don't want to sell them a replacement.

PE

 

[Mark Layne]

Glad to see you fellows are in a more relaxed and creative state of mind than when the thread started