How long 35mm with no new cameras?

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troym

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Kris beat me to the punch. I stumbled into the rangefinder world a few years back and have been pleasantly surprised by the steady stream of new 35mm film cameras (and great lenses for them) that Zeiss, Cosina (under the Voigtlander mark), and Leica have produced recently.

I imagine there will be fewer choices of 35mm film in the future, but even if no more 35mm film camera is ever produced, there will still be significant demand for *some* 35mm film. Keep in mind the vast number of 35mm film cameras produced over the years. Think of the odd formats (126, 127, etc.) that were produced many years after cameras in those formats were no longer manufactured.
 

stealthman_1

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I was shocked recently to see B&H selling home-made 828! When was the last time an 828 camera was made? I don't think there are that many Bantam Specials out there. There are still billions of people who could make up a film market. Digital isn't squat without a computer to view it on. A big chunk of the world hasn't come into the computer age and won't for some time.
 

Muihlinn

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where do people come up with this?

Hi John, probably it comes from the same ones who used to buy comparing the specs of stuff they never use, or which primary use is to be a social sign. IE if you have a first gen ipod out of an exhibition case you're kinda a lamer, translate that to stashing images (in the end is what most people does) and you get the idea.

/me again in my own point of view, making friends, as usual :smile:
 

Ian Grant

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I was shocked recently to see B&H selling home-made 828! When was the last time an 828 camera was made? I don't think there are that many Bantam Specials out there. There are still billions of people who could make up a film market. Digital isn't squat without a computer to view it on. A big chunk of the world hasn't come into the computer age and won't for some time.

828 film was re-packaged and given a new lease of life as the 126 cartridge :D

But even 126 died is now almost unobtainable, except for some small specialist packaging.

Ian
 

nsouto

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I'll confirm that is what I heard from various sources. I would guess that no one wants to give out the real figure and that the "real" figures varies seasonally or is based on Hollywood usage. There is also considerable use by Bollywood.

I'd say Bollywood and many other places - Cairo comes to mind - are by far more significant in film use than Holywood.
 

2F/2F

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I was shocked recently to see B&H selling home-made 828! When was the last time an 828 camera was made? I don't think there are that many Bantam Specials out there. There are still billions of people who could make up a film market. Digital isn't squat without a computer to view it on. A big chunk of the world hasn't come into the computer age and won't for some time.

Thanks for the tip! I have a Bantam back with a teeny ground glass that I figured was unusable.
 

archphoto

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There is a diference between 110, 126, 127, Bantam, Rapid and now: the amatures used it, the pro's stuck to their Leica's and Nikons.
This time the pro's went digital aswell.
As a pro I am forced by my customers (architects) to go digital: take a shoot in the afternoon and present the full set the next morning.
Here in Goiânia, Brazil no pro-lab is left....... Forget 4x5 inch and the rest down here, Sao Paulo is 1000 km away.....

Honnestly: I'll be glad to be back in Europe again and pick-up my SL66 and Sinar P2........
 
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I say good riddance to any camera that is not manual (focus, exposure, the whole deal)...and while we are at it (camera purges), let us also do away with zoom lenses.

Bleh, such a waste of my time. Older cameras are so much better deals (quality and price) than new ones.
 

wogster

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I'd say Bollywood and many other places - Cairo comes to mind - are by far more significant in film use than Holywood.

I don't know about Oz, but here in Canada out of 20 movie screens, 19 of them are film based projection. Even a movie that is entirely digitally shot and edited, is usually converted to film for projection (this is the case so far for all the Pixar stuff).

I would suspect that the amount of movie print film used, far exceeds the amount used in movie cameras. Converting a theatre to digital projection is an expensive process that really gains the theatre owner nothing. Now I know of one theatre where it changed owners and was closed for 6 months, and they ripped out everything and redid the whole place, that one may be all digital projection. I haven't been inside since it reopened.

As long as the machinery for film production is needed for movie projection film print making, it will be available for still film production. What you may find though is that a Kodak or Fuji would coat film for others, if they didn't want to do it for themselves, simply because you make no money on a machine that sits idle.
 

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I'm a strong supporter of Kodachrome 64. If you check B&H, I predict you will find that all 35mm cameras are in the process of being discontinued, at least all the ones that aren't junk. How long can 35mm stay viable with only used cameras available?

One might ask the same thing about old and "outdated" formats like 8X10, 5X7, and 4X5. True - there are still a few cameras made for this stuff but very few. I daresay a good portion of the LF film is burned by those with the older wooden cameras (like me), the likes of which haven't been made for a few years anyway. With digital having eaten a hole in the film photographer's way of doing things (advertising), it's doubtful things will retrench anytime soon.

There will always be a small market for 35mm simply because of the number of cameras built to use it in the last 80 years. The variety of available types of film will, no doubt, suck severely much as the LF availability/variety now but it'll be around until most of the cameras melt down, the available types being foreign as the b&w market seems to be going now.

The biggest threat I see is the chemistry required to develop the film and prints may eventually be deemed far to dangerous to allow the common man/woman/photographer to possess. Some of it is rather nasty stuff and, if one knows his/her business, can do some not-so-nice things with it.

Mr. PE, care to chime in on this? [No formulas]
 

Photo Engineer

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Frank;

I've said it before.... In the long term LF sheet film and plates will be easier for the hobbyist and professional to hand craft than 35mm and therefore long term life of LF cameras and films will have the best future IMHO. It may take 100 years to see this come true, but I think it will take place the way I see it.

Chemistry will be with us as long as the environmentalists don't take over and restrict access to chemicals. But, I see this already taking place. People have fear of chemicals the same way they fear guns. Both are safe or dangerous depending on the person and the intent.

PE
 
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Consider this: Regular 8mm film became obsolete in 1965 when Super 8 was introduced. More than 40 years later, I can still get film for my two regular 8mm cameras. There's even several color and B&W stocks to choose from!

That's a niche product. 35mm film is still mainstream, with huge amounts being used worldwide every day. It's not going away any time soon. Ask again in 40 years.
 

Frank Szabo

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Frank;

I've said it before.... In the long term LF sheet film and plates will be easier for the hobbyist and professional to hand craft than 35mm and therefore long term life of LF cameras and films will have the best future IMHO. It may take 100 years to see this come true, but I think it will take place the way I see it.

Chemistry will be with us as long as the environmentalists don't take over and restrict access to chemicals. But, I see this already taking place. People have fear of chemicals the same way they fear guns. Both are safe or dangerous depending on the person and the intent.

PE

Monsanto's old catchphrase "Better Living Through Chemistry" took on an entirely new meaning during the 60s, but, what you've said before is true.

As for the chemistry, I don't worry about the tree huggers - I worry more about the idiots that run the TSA and associated paranoia (not a minature parakeet) factories. These are the ones that will ultimately undo the country's liberties that, all in the name of "safety" according to Mr. Ben Franklin, we'll no longer deserve after trading said liberty for a little temporary safety.

Got to go - just returned from the music store with a new bridge to fit to my fiddle. One thing will lead to another, the wife will go get some Guiness, start acting Irish and playing her penny whistle and we'll end up with a party over here tonight.
 
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Ian Grant

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As Ron (PE) can confirm it's certainly not rocket science to manufacture emulsions, and it's not beyond a competent engineer to make a coating machine - it is beyond my skills though :D There are examples on the internet, albeit relatively small scale, but high quality results are achievable.

But if 35mm was abandoned by film manufacturers the LF revival would gather greater pace. I have noticed recently that fewer LF enlargers are being sold second hand, the clear out of professional labs is slowing down rapidly most redundant equipment has been sold or scrapped, & unfortunately mostly scrapped. There is of course many more LF camears & lenses still available but soon that market will flatten out to.

Within 5 years or so there will be an increasing demand for new equipment. Although Analog will remain a niche market it will continue. We will never get back to a situation where the big 5 manufacturers make 35mm cameras, after all only 4 of them are left :D But we might see 1 or 2 making film SLR's and smaller companies like Cosina meeting our needs, remember that Nikon out-source some of their SLR's (the FM's).

It may well be that Kodak downsize and can't continue making the films we want in the long run. They have already considered dropping manufacture of all B&W films, but Hollywood needs B&W masking films for special effects that's why we have the new Tmax 400, and other B&W films.

But remember Kodak isn't a big boyant player any more, they are large and wallowing. They dropped B&W papers giving Ilford the US market, & a lifeline :D Ilford or rather Harmann Technology are committed to staying in the market, and Fuji seem to be saying the same.

Ian
 

Ian Grant

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By the way, a number of responses to my post in this thread seems to suggest that my post is somehow in opposition to film--as the post itself said, my sentiments are the opposite. I just don't see the future for 35mm film any more than there was for 8-track tapes. Can they be purchased anymore? I don't think so, even though they sounded great.

I didn't read your post as being anti film. You do raise an important issue though.

Film isn't like 8 track, many of us always thought 8 track was rubbish, the tapes didn't last well at all played frequently.

35mm film will be around for quite a long time, but it could disappear film users will retreat to the LF roots of photography :D

Ian
 

troym

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By the way, a number of responses to my post in this thread seems to suggest that my post is somehow in opposition to film--as the post itself said, my sentiments are the opposite. I just don't see the future for 35mm film any more than there was for 8-track tapes. Can they be purchased anymore? I don't think so, even though they sounded great.

For how many years were 8 track tape decks produced in any quantity? 10 years? 15 years? 35mm cameras have been produced for much longer, and there are orders of magnitude more 35mm film cameras out there in the world than extant 8 track decks. Even if only a fraction of those cameras are used, that's a fairly significant source of demand.

Ron (PE) is probably right that large format will be the last film format to die out totally.

Buy if the debate is whether MF or 35mm will die first, I think MF is more vulnerable, despite the superior image resolution (cf. 8 track tape). When manufacturers slim down their film offerings, they seem to drop MF before 35mm. Why? The vastly greater number of 35mm cameras out there compared to the MF offerings.
 

Photo Engineer

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While I agree in essence with Ian, I would like to add to his comments.

It is not rocket science to make emulsions and coat them, but it approaches that level for 35mm if you want any degree of quality. This is my hedge to explain why I think that LF is probably the long term future of analog.

As for Kodak, their stock has dropped from a high in the mid 90s of about $120 to the current of about $6. HAH. But the same can be said of Xerox.

Now, as for Kodak dropping B&W paper. Yes, they did and they did it instead of buying Ilford. You know, Ilford is quite a bit smaller in its entirety than Kodak's paper division was. So, it was entirely possible. At one time, KRL was over 2000 people just doing R&D and Ilford was just a bit smaller with about 200 in the whole company. IDK the figures there of course, that is just an estimate.

So, Ilford is lighter on their feet, can move faster, but R&D will move slower in some ways.

The future markets will all determine availability by profitability. Even Ilford cannot keep making things that don't return a profit.

PE
 

Ian Grant

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I think you figures are way out Ron :D

Kodak tried to buy Ilford 3 times. In the early days Ilford were the more technically advanced of the two companies, and it's fair tom say Kodak always lagged behind them in terms of B&W materials until Tmax films. Kodak papers never matched Ilford's in terms of any quality :D

The Irony is as we discussed privately in a telephone conversation. Kodak may bow out of B&W as a manufacturer & buy in it's B&W films just as it's done with all it's chemicals.

Ian
 

Photo Engineer

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Ian;

I'm not sure of your figures either regarding technical expertise. But lets agree to disagree. Kodak has a larger staff in analog than Ilford. That I am pretty sure of.

PE
 

wogster

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As stated in my original post, I'm a dual format returnee too, though I can't claim to be a particularly accomplished one. I've never used anything but film for hobby work, as I see no advantage to digital below the level of a MF back, which I can't afford. And I've returned to film for point-and-shoot.

By the way, speaking of MF digital backs, my understanding from Luminous Landscape and other sources is that MF backs mostly solve the problem of digital look, from clipping, because the dynamic range is wide enough to expose for the highlights and still have detail in the shadows; the digital look from the linear character of the sensor is solved in processing, leaving clipping the main contributor to the look as I understand things (which may be imperfectly). There is the question of tone as well, I know, and ink-jet versus wet printing, but there too, the differences are not huge from what I've seen and read. Don't get me wrong, it still costs $30,000 in digital to replace a $1,500 film setup, but I'd bet if twenty-times the cost were not an issue, most (not all, of course) would turn to the MF back: a 6x4.5 sensor gives greater depth-of-field options than 4x5 film; autofocus on a high-end digital camera seems a nice option; and there is the option to work much faster, always an issue (at least for me) with light always changing.

Nobody makes a 6cm x 4.5cm sensor it would probably cost closer to $120,000, most digital backs use a sensor that is roughly 35mm sized. The issue is that like any other type of silicon chip, there is a limit to the number of defects allowed, so a large percentage of units made, end up failing at the quality control phase. The larger the unit, fewer units you get on a wafer and the larger the chance that a particular unit will have too many defects to be usable. Medium format backs however, don't really affect the choice of film cameras, because the camera is the same, the back is different. There are so many MF film backs in circulation, and they are built so well, that even if they stopped making them today, the supply would probably last into the next century.

There are other issues though with MF backs, first is that a 30MP image, means a data file of at least 120 million bytes in size, at 14 bits per pixel you usually round up to 16 bits for storage, which means 240,000,000 bytes or 228.8 MB of storage per image. The typical 700MB CD-R would hold 3 images. A DVD-R would hold about 21 images a dual layer maybe twice that. You can use compressed storage, but that means taking the time on the computer to process the images, and don't forget, the bigger the images, the more computer power you need to process them in a reasonable amount of time.

The digital look comes from three factors, dynamic range is only one of them, the lack of grain is another and lack of tonality is a third. A 14 bit image has 16.384 discrete tones it can reproduce in each colour for each pixel, a film image has an infinite number of discrete tones it can produce.

I find that most of the digital comparisons to film are done from the digital side, which gives it an advantage, they scan the negative or slide and then do everything digitally from there. None actually take a digital image and a film photograph at the same time, of the same scene, process them appropriately using the appropriate technology, then make a print and compare the prints. Yet a digital or film capture is not a photograph. The photograph is the finished print. I expect a digital scan of a film image is going to have many of the same issues as a digital capture, including the issues of dynamic range and lack of tonality.

Many of the modern features of modern digital cameras, such as auto focus, multiple kinds of auto exposure, also apply to modern film cameras. Many of the modern DSLRs with live view use two sensors, the small viewfinder sensor could probably be added to a film camera as well, giving you the ability to get the advantages of digital with film capture.
 

firecracker

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I have noticed recently that fewer LF enlargers are being sold second hand, the clear out of professional labs is slowing down rapidly most redundant equipment has been sold or scrapped, & unfortunately mostly scrapped.

This is sort of happening in the Japanese market, I think. As far as the second hand equipment goes, for hobbists selling and buying from online auctions, Yahoo Japan auction was a good place until recently, but now there's hardly any good stuff appearing there. Now it's pretty much 80% of the time, it's junk that people wanna get rid of or make money out of.

Meanwhile, the manufacturers such as LPL and Fujimoto/Lucky have increased their prices more than once in the last year or two, and their brand new 4x5 enlargers are getting so expensive. Fujimoto doubled the prices for their products the last time when Kenko stepped in their business (buyout or merger I don't know).

So, for the new comers, now the used market is becoming a junk yard and the price range for the new stuff is ridiculous...
 

Ray Rogers

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This is sort of happening in the Japanese market, I think. As far as the second hand equipment goes, for hobbists selling and buying from online auctions, Yahoo Japan auction was a good place until recently, but now there's hardly any good stuff appearing there....
So, for the new comers, now the used market is becoming a junk yard and the price range for the new stuff is ridiculous...

I pretty much agree with you.
 

Ray Rogers

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?

In the early days Ilford were the more technically advanced of the two companies, and it's fair tom say Kodak always lagged behind them in terms of B&W materials until Tmax films. Kodak papers never matched Ilford's in terms of any quality....

I'm not sure of your figures either regarding technical expertise.
But lets agree to disagree.
PE

???

Ian,
This is a rather provocative statement.
Could you expand on this?

What Ilford products demonstrates what you say?
In the absence of a product to product comparison, on what do you base the claim of Ilford's superiority?

Ray
 
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