How Josef Koudelka achieved this style?

[radiant]

I just got Koudelkas book and found out he had made many of these really contrasty (or binary?) photos. I assume these are made with analog equipment, but how? The book has few more but these are quite difficult to find online .. Not so commonly known Koudelkas work, probably.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Litho film or similar - or possibly litho film used as a mask in the printing steps. Basically it's designed to give almost no halftones (ie black/ white only, with very high density and very low fog) unless exposed to a halftone screen.

 

[radiant]

Litho film or similar - or possibly litho film used as a mask in the printing steps. Basically it's designed to give almost no halftones (ie black/ white only, with very high density and very low fog) unless exposed to a halftone screen.

Has he exposed litho film from original? I haven't used or even know any available litho film so I don't know its properties.

Here is one more:

 

[Lachlan Young]

Has he exposed litho film from original? I haven't used or even know any available litho film so I don't know its properties.

Here is one more:

View attachment 276451

It could also be document film processed in a normal developer - in fact, that's probably more likely, as you may get some halftone (and was available in 135 canisters readily), but it varies - and you can always then print on G5 to punch out any remaining mids. To put it another way, process CMS20ii in ID-11 or XT-3 or whatever and see what happens.

 

[radiant]

It could also be document film processed in a normal developer - in fact, that's probably more likely, as you may get some halftone (and was available in 135 canisters readily), but it varies - and you can always then print on G5 to punch out any remaining mids. To put it another way, process CMS20ii in ID-11 or XT-3 or whatever and see what happens.

Wouldn't that just produce pretty well exposed negative with midtones? I assume you suggest CMS 20 so to have low base+fog? But I'm pretty sure G5 isn't enough to pull that kind of result out of normally developed film?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Wouldn't that just produce pretty well exposed negative with midtones? I assume you suggest CMS 20 so to have low base+fog? But I'm pretty sure G5 isn't enough to pull that kind of result out of normally developed film?

CMS 20 is extremely high contrast when processed in a normal contrast film developer.

 

[radiant]

CMS 20 is extremely high contrast when processed in a normal contrast film developer.

I didn't know that. Thanks!

Maybe I try copying original negative to negative film (to get positive) and then copy to CMS 20.

 

[Ian Grant]

Well lith and line films are versy slow speed so he's making inter negatives, it's unlikely to be document film mainly because at the time he made the images document films was less common but lith and line films were every where. In the 70's and 80's I used as much Lith/Line film as aI did conventional for work.

The differeance between lith and line films is contrast, while both can be processed to extreme contrast in a Lith developer a Line film has more tonality in lower contrast developers> I used an Ilford Line film very briefly then they sold their Graphic, X-ray, and medical division, essentially just their client base, to Agfa-Gevaert.

Ian

 

[Bazza D]

I like Kodak 2378 for that kind of look. It is orthochromatic motion picture film for sound recording. Lomography Fantome can work if you choose the light and subject well but it isn't as good. I think Photo Wharehouse sells a lith film as well. Been meaning to try it just haven't got around to it yet. I tried Rollei Otrho 25 and did not like it. Though it may have been my development. Ilford has an Ortho film as well. Ortho 80 I think, fast as those types of films go. And now I have to add CMS II to my list. I wasn't sure bout it since they recommend a developer but I want the high contrast so no need to worry about that.

 

[Don_ih]

You enlarge your normal negative on lith film, develop that in your print tray, then rephotograph it with white behind it (paper) using copy film, then enlarge the resulting negative. You may need to mask your initial enlargement or cut bits out of the lith film (with scissors). All good fun.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

These are Koudelka's early works - before the Prague Invasion and before his "Gypsies" set. The first two are photos taken during rehearsals at the Behind the Gate theater in Prague - mid-60s, he hadn't even switched totally to being a photographer then, was still working as an aeronautical engineer. So you have a combination of theater lighting, with its extremely high contrast, and (probably) slow film.

Not sure if he had access to very sophisticated film. The major work, though, to achieve the look - for those and for the street photos -, was done in the darkroom, in which he spent hours experimenting.

It would be misleading to call this part of his "style" - he fully became a documentary photographer after the Prague Invasion -, but it certainly taught him about light, contrast and the ambiguities they can created when well manipulated within the photo documentary context.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ilford has an Ortho film as well.

It's a normal contrast film (think FP4+ without red sensitivity) - which you can develop to higher contrast indices by using more powerful developers. I think Ilford suggest it can be persuaded up to maybe a G-bar (CI) of 1.8 or so - litho/ line materials are usually 5.0 or more.

Not sure if he had access to very sophisticated film.

It didn't need to be. Lith/ line films were standard for halftone work worldwide. Pretty much every manufacturer made them in huge quantities. And beyond that there were vast arrays of other high contrast films for all sorts of technical procedures that used photographic processes.

it's unlikely to be document film mainly because at the time he made the images document films was less common but lith and line films were every where.

If these were (as the available evidence suggests) darkroom manipulations, lith or line seems much more likely. Nevertheless, document films were hardly uncommon in the 1960s (within the technical sectors that used them for their intended purposes - remember that Koudelka trained as an engineer and would have been familiar with the storage media used at the time). It's not out of the realms of possibility that he borrowed some materials from his then day-job.

 

[awty]

Very cool.
Looks like Rollie 25 before you use #0 contrast filter.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

As per this NYT article, for his Prague invasion photographs (1968), Koudelka used cinema film. Might have also been the case for his earlier theater photos.

Excerpt: "By dawn Mr. Koudelka was out in the street with his Exakta camera loaded with cinema film that he cut from the end of exposed movie reels. That type of film may account for the etched graphic depth of the grain in his pictures."

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/arts/design/14geft.html

 

[Ian Grant]

If these were (as the available evidence suggests) darkroom manipulations, lith or line seems much more likely. Nevertheless, document films were hardly uncommon in the 1960s (within the technical sectors that used them for their intended purposes - remember that Koudelka trained as an engineer and would have been familiar with the storage media used at the time). It's not out of the realms of possibility that he borrowed some materials from his then day-job.

I think you also need to look at the books available in the 1950's and 60's becaused these techniques were illustrated in them, and they were similar images in BJP Almanacs before WWII.

Ian

 

[Lachlan Young]

I think you also need to look at the books available in the 1950's and 60's becaused these techniques were illustrated in them, and they were similar images in BJP Almanacs before WWII.

Ian

I'm not suggesting he was in any way innovative - merely pointing out that there were many routes to the end result, not all of which might be obvious. Litho friskets/ mattes had been standard issue graphic arts stuff for decades by the 1960s.

 

[radiant]

Great insights everyone, thanks!

Looks like Rollie 25 before you use #0 contrast filter.

I need to get that to the test too!

Maybe I just try first CMS 20 and Rollei 25 exposing subject directly against backlight now during the summer sun and develop in XT-III and print on grade 5. Also maybe try copying a bit.

There is also this "thinning" effect which I'm curious about. Or is this just side effect of hight contrast negative?

 

[Mike Crawford]

As per this NYT article, for his Prague invasion photographs (1968), Koudelka used cinema film. Might have also been the case for his earlier theater photos.

Excerpt: "By dawn Mr. Koudelka was out in the street with his Exakta camera loaded with cinema film that he cut from the end of exposed movie reels. That type of film may account for the etched graphic depth of the grain in his pictures."

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/arts/design/14geft.html

I print for Markéta Luskačová who is another great Czech photographer from Prague and a contemporary of, and good friend of Josef Koudelka. I remember her telling me about her and Josef often buying cuts of motion picture stock from a Prague cameraman. This was actually illegal, as the film company was State owned under communism, but was a way for the cameraman to make something on the side and for young photographers to get film cheaply. However, they never really knew what they were getting and if it was fresh stock or something years old and found in a cupboard. Often it was in an unmarked tin, so no clue until processed what film it was. I think they used to share a darkroom, but both had left Czechoslovakia (as was) by the mid 70s. My impression of the images originally posted is as others said, probably copies of prints on lith or line film and greatly enlarged. Will have to ask Markéta next time I see her. She always has great and fascinating stories!

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I print for Markéta Luskačová who is another great Czech photographer from Prague and a contemporary of, and good friend of Josef Koudelka. I remember her telling me about her and Josef often buying cuts of motion picture stock from a Prague cameraman. This was actually illegal, as the film company was State owned under communism, but was a way for the cameraman to make something on the side and for young photographers to get film cheaply. However, they never really knew what they were getting and if it was fresh stock or something years old and found in a cupboard. Often it was in an unmarked tin, so no clue until processed what film it was. I think they used to share a darkroom, but both had left Czechoslovakia (as was) by the mid 70s. My impression of the images originally posted is as others said, probably copies of prints on lith or line film and greatly enlarged. Will have to ask Markéta next time I see her. She always has great and fascinating stories!

Great info, Mike! Keep us posted if you learn more.

By the way, OP, Koudelka has an Instagram page - https://www.instagram.com/josef_koudelka/ - probably not run by him (it's a Magnum page), but still, you might send a message asking about the process and, who knows, it might reach him and he might answer...