How important is black?

[Mike1234]

It's been a million years since I printed B&W but my procedure then was to NEVER print quite to D-Max. I selenium toned to deepen shadow areas without losing detail.

 

[eclarke]

I agree with your wife

a slight blast of 5 would improve this image as I see it on the screen without affecting the mood.

I bet the print looks better than the web image...EC

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... Here's a parallel question - is "contrast" just another way of saying deep blacks and bright whites, or can it be something else?

Of course, midtone contrast can be lowered or raised without significant affecting highlights and shadows. Actually some contrast filters in combination with some VC papers don't affect highlight contrast at all, unfortunately.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

With regard to the toning... This is printed on Fomabrom Variant 112 matte paper, using Ethol LPD developer (replenished).
When the print is washed, I bleached it in dilute potferri+bromide for about 15 seconds, then toned in the Kodak Sepia II (warm tone) toner back to complete tonal scale.
On top of a wash, I also dunked the print in selenium 1+4 for about 30 seconds, which gave the maroon color base in the low and mid values.

Ralph, I think you hit your head on the nail when you mentioned mood. I don't know if you all can see from the uploaded scan, but the 'noise' in the darker areas of the building is snow. It was snowing. It was a quiet morning. Cold. The water was still and calm. I tried to capture that stillness and calm, and the higher contrast version Ralph created just doesn't represent the mood at all.
But then again, the high contrast looks pretty cool, and more often than not I modify my prints almost beyond recognition of a straight proof print, just to express mood better...

I think we will all just never agree how prints should be made. I usually like a strong black, but there are exceptions.

Next time I go into the darkroom I'll try Bob Carnie's suggestion of throwing some high contrast #5 filter at it to gain some definition in the sky, stacks, smoke, and texture of the building.

If I remember I'll post a scan of the resulting print here.

- Thomas

 

[Sirius Glass]

Ralph, I think you hit your head on the nail when you mentioned mood. I don't know if you all can see from the uploaded scan, but the 'noise' in the darker areas of the building is snow. It was snowing. It was a quiet morning. Cold. The water was still and calm. I tried to capture that stillness and calm, and the higher contrast version Ralph created just doesn't represent the mood at all.

Since there is snow, maximum black would be out of place. See my previous comments.

Steve

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thomas

not much is needed, just tweak it a hair.

Bob

With regard to the toning... This is printed on Fomabrom Variant 112 matte paper, using Ethol LPD developer (replenished).
When the print is washed, I bleached it in dilute potferri+bromide for about 15 seconds, then toned in the Kodak Sepia II (warm tone) toner back to complete tonal scale.
On top of a wash, I also dunked the print in selenium 1+4 for about 30 seconds, which gave the maroon color base in the low and mid values.

Ralph, I think you hit your head on the nail when you mentioned mood. I don't know if you all can see from the uploaded scan, but the 'noise' in the darker areas of the building is snow. It was snowing. It was a quiet morning. Cold. The water was still and calm. I tried to capture that stillness and calm, and the higher contrast version Ralph created just doesn't represent the mood at all.
But then again, the high contrast looks pretty cool, and more often than not I modify my prints almost beyond recognition of a straight proof print, just to express mood better...

I think we will all just never agree how prints should be made. I usually like a strong black, but there are exceptions.

Next time I go into the darkroom I'll try Bob Carnie's suggestion of throwing some high contrast #5 filter at it to gain some definition in the sky, stacks, smoke, and texture of the building.

If I remember I'll post a scan of the resulting print here.

- Thomas

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Taste is endless and there as so many ways to print one image. And it's impossible to satisfy everyone.
I tend to print darker and darker. That's me. Black is very important in my pictures.
It's about your vision, your feel and your signature.
G.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Taste is endless and there as so many ways to print one image. And it's impossible to satisfy everyone.
I tend to print darker and darker. That's me. Black is very important in my pictures.
It's about your vision, your feel and your signature.
G.

G pretty much sums it up for me.... I think your experimentation is from the heart and as such you can't go wrong. You'll figure it out, Thomas. All the best. Shawn

 

[dancqu]

An Obsessive Pursuit of Max Blac

An obsessive pursuit of Max Black will lead one
though many papers, many developers, and
a few inhassment techniques.

I do appreciate a good deep black where it belongs
but do not obsess. Fortunately papers that can
deliver are the norm. I dry glossy paper mat
fashion so the paper's sheen is a factor.

Then there are high-key and mat prints. You'll
not find what might be called Max Black
with either. Dan

 

[MattKing]

IMHO, I don't think you can discuss this issue in a vacuum - you need to bring in the issue of how the print is to be seen or displayed as well.

As an example, if you are viewing it matted and framed, the matt colour is really important, and should influence how it is printed.

If the print is to be viewed under very bright, or very dim light, it should influence how it is printed.

I expect that there is more latitude ("wiggle room") when the subject has a wide range of tones, and less when the subject exhibits a narrower range of tones, or a particular "mood".

$0.02 worth, of course.

Matt

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

And there is what we see on the computer screen...
Another issue.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Careful now guys. Too many what-ifs kill the conversation. Your points are all valid true for all similar discussion about print tonality. The general suggestion of needing to print for the final display environment is a good one, not always possible, but always assumed.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

As an example, if you are viewing it matted and framed, the matt colour is really important, and should influence how it is printed.

Matt

Matt color? What matt color, is there anything but off-white?

I must be living in a very simple world.

 

[mrdarklight]

On the one hand, one might be tempted to say: pah, black is just another tone. Nothing special.

But max black and bright white are at the limits of the tone scale and thus calibrate the eye for the other tones. So I suppose that the tones are all quite relative unless you have a black and white limiting tones to "set the scale," so to speak.

Of course, you can have an effective print which has no max black or bright white.... it just depends on the subject matter. But nevertheless, the presence of limiting/calibrating tones seems to be quite common: if max black and a crisp white aren't present in a black and white print then, lo and behold, I noticed that a lot of time people will supply them with a white surround (mat) and a black frame! That's not required, of course, it's just something I've noticed. It is as if people need for the tone scale to be anchored/calibrated.

This is my thinking on the subject.

You can have a print that has very little black or very little white, there are plenty of fine images like this. You could probably even have no white or no black, but I don't think you want none of both. That would just make the image look poorly exposed or developed.

But... if an image works, then go with it. If there's any rule to art, it is not to strictly adhere to any rules.

 

[jmal]

The question that nobody seems to ask is: How important is purple?

Just kidding.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The question that nobody seems to ask is: How important is purple?

If I am taking a color photograph of a thistle, very important. Otherwise, generally, not so important.

Steve