How important are consistent temps with B&W?

I live in Florida, and in the summer, my cold tap runs anywhere between 76°F and 80°F. Last night it was running at 79°F, the night before it was 76°F.

The night before I plan to develop, I fill a couple of pitchers & cylinders with water, and either leave them out on the counter, or (if there's room) put them in the fridge, then warm them back up to 68-70°F before using. So my developer is typically in the 70-74°F range, and I try to keep my stop bath (just water) at the same temp, as well as my fixer. If I set up enough water, my pre-wash will also be in the same range.

My rinse is where I have concerns. It's really impossible for me to have 5 minutes of running water at temps even close to developer/fixer temps. Without fail, it'll be 78°F or higher. Is this a major issue? I'm still in the beginner's stage of developing, and while I've been mostly satisfied with my results, I question if this temp issue is resulting in negatives that could be better.

On a side note, can I do a final final rinse with 'correct' temp distilled water? My tap is very hard, and I seem to always end up with water spots. I don't have a proper wetting agent, so I use one drop of Dawn (Fairy in the UK) for the last 30 seconds, and then give it a good rinse. I'm thinking maybe use the distilled water as the rinse after the wetting agent to reduce spotting?

Thanks.

Just work at the ambient water temperature. And use something like an old Kodak Darkroom Dataguide to adjust your times accordingly.

You will need to use a developer that works best with longer standard times, because the higher temperature will require you to shorten those times.

A bottle of Kodak Photoflo lasts a long time. Dawn is full of stuff that isn't designed for film.

MattKing said:

Just work at the ambient water temperature. And use something like an old Kodak Darkroom Dataguide to adjust your times accordingly.

You will need to use a developer that works best with longer standard times, because the higher temperature will require you to shorten those times.

A bottle of Kodak Photoflo lasts a long time. Dawn is full of stuff that isn't designed for film.

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When you say at the ambient temperature, do you mean at the temp the tap is running at, or room temp? I use HC-110, and I'm finding with the temps I've been using, the times get really short, which makes me a bit uncomfortable.

If the times are getting short, you could consider using a different dilution - less HC-110 would mean longer development times.

Also, I'll second the suggestion to get a bottle of Photoflo. A drop will do it, and it'll last a long time. You should mix it with your room temp distilled water as the final wash - you don't want to do a Photoflo/wetting agent wash and then another one after that because you'll lose any benefit from the wetting agent.

I think, also, that as long as the temperature changes aren't sudden and severe, you'll not likely have a huge risk of reticulation, which is what will happen if you jump from 68 to 78, potentially.

Kevin Harding said:

If the times are getting short, you could consider using a different dilution - less HC-110 would mean longer development times.

Also, I'll second the suggestion to get a bottle of Photoflo. A drop will do it, and it'll last a long time. You should mix it with your room temp distilled water as the final wash - you don't want to do a Photoflo/wetting agent wash and then another one after that because you'll lose any benefit from the wetting agent.

I think, also, that as long as the temperature changes aren't sudden and severe, you'll not likely have a huge risk of reticulation, which is what will happen if you jump from 68 to 78, potentially.

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That's what prompted the question. I try keeping everything at the same moderate temp (approx 74°F), but the rinse is, IMO, way hotter at 78-80°F.

Can I reuse the distilled water with the photoflow? I just thnk it would be a PITA to get distilled water all the time, and the wife wouldn't be happy with a stockade full in storage.

You can reuse mixed photoflow for quite a long time keeping it in a storage bottle as you do for the other solutions. I actually process B&W using the stabilizer from my C41. It is nothing more than photoflow with 5ml of formaldehyde per liter serving to inhibit growth of molds and bacteria in the developed film. Processed color film contains no silver and the gelatin and dyes are somewhat protected from deteriorating by stabilizer. B&W films have of course a silver image and are therefore mostly immune from molds and mildew and bacterial growth, so the inclusion of formaldehyde is not necessary. I use it simply for convenience and mix new stabilizer perhaps once a year or whenever the formaldehyde odor fades.

hot water

Eons ago in the film era I worked for a newspaper that did not have hot water in the darkroom. I would heat my film developer to 75 degrees or so and after the development I would rinse the film in water that was 50 degrees in the wintertime. The fixer was 50 degrees, too. The wash water was 50 degrees, too. I never had a problem.
I believe there is no substitute for PhotoFlo. I've been usong it since the late 1950s. I still use it.

My rinse is where I have concerns. It's really impossible for me to have 5 minutes of running water at temps even close to developer/fixer temps.

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Using the Ilford method for washing you need only 3x the volume of your developing tank.
Described in:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf (bottom of page 2)
and commented in:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/ilfwash.pdf
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

In my version I need 4x the tank volume of tap water (prepared in a jug) and 1x the volume of distilled water. All pre-conditioned at process temperature (tolerance 2°C). With tap water: 1) prewash to remove most of the fixer in the tank; invert once, dump. Then the 3 steps of the Ilford method, last one extended to 30 inversions for a feeling of safety. Last, remove spiral, fill tank with distilled (or de-ionized) water, add Photo-Flo, dip spiral, wait 30s, lift, unroll, hang (do not wipe).

When I'm in Turkey the ambient water temperature is a consistent 26-27º C from Spring through to Autumn. I process my films at the ambient water temperature making sure that I keep that temperature constant for every stage of the process cycle including washing. I use and extended version of the Ilford wash method. Final rinse is with bottled water..

There's no qualitity differences between films processed at 20ºC or 27ºC, however tight temperature control is even more important at higher temperatures where there's more risk of softening emulsions.

Ian

I live in Florida too, and would agree that it's a challenge during the summers to get the temps correct. I put a couple of gallons of water in my fridge, and use them to make a cold bath in one of the kitchen double sinks for setting the tank and gradients in to cool down. Usually some ice cubes are required as well. My negs are always developed and fixed at 68 degrees, then washed for 30 minutes w/ the water right out of the tap, which is probably 80 to 85 degrees. I don't care about that, as by then everything has been developed and fixed. Never had any issues doing it this way.

If you usually use dilution B of HC-110 and are concerned about short development times, you can use unofficial "dilution H," which is twice as weak (1+64) and develop for twice as long.

Having had darkrooms that have ranged from being like an oven (my current darkroom during a hot summer - such as we have this year - will be at more than 30C/86F) and others having been like a fridge, I quickly discovered how to keep all of my film processing at 20C.

The very simple way to achieve consistency across your processing chemicals. is to simply take a large bucket (one reserved for the purpose being the ideal) and fill it two thirds full with water and then add cold (keep a few bottles in your fridge) or hot (kettle) water as required. You then use this water for your presoak | developer | stop| fix | wash (using the Ilford method).

If you have ready mixed developer (for example I reuse a two bath developer) then you need a metal container to which you add the cold or hot water as required and leave in in for 5 minutes, drain the water out into a jug and then add your developer until it rises/sinks to the correct temperature. Then you can pour the developer into a plastic jug so that it will stay stable at the desired temperature.

Due to issues with the varying PH of tap water (not to mention the water pipes serving my darkroom are victorian) I personally always use distilled water to make my developers and for the final 3 minute soak with wetting agent. If you have tested whichever washing method you use for efficiency, then the distilled water with wetting agent can be reused many times.

A quick note about the Ilford washing method. In response to a particularly severe UK water shortage, Ilford developed a new way of washing films. Their recommendation was to drain the fixer from the tank and then fill the tank with water (at +/- 5C from processing chemicals) and invert 5 times, pour out and repeat but inverting 10 times and finally pour out water and add fresh water and invert for 20 times.

When I tested this system over a number of films, I found that its efficiency was not consistent. I therefore modified it slightly and now always achieve fully washed films. The system that I use is as follows:

From the bucket of water measure out four jugs of water to be used as the wash, one to hold the film whilst the tank is being cleaned and a final jug with distilled water with wetting agent. Then you do the following:

• Remove film from tank and place in holding jug
• Pour fix out of tank
• Thoroughly clean all parts of tank (I have no scientific evidence but I believe this is the key to making such a short wash work well)
• Pour first wash water into tank and add the film spiral and invert 10 times
• Pour out first wash and add second wash water into tank and invert 10 times
• Pour out second wash and add third wash water into tank and invert 20 times
• Pour out third wash and add fourth wash water into tank and invert 20 times
• Remove film and place in jug with water and wetting agent
• After 3 minutes, remove film, add drying clips and pour the contents of the jug down both sides of the film
• Place in drying cabinet without touching the films (i.e. no squeeggee, finders, etc)
• Hope that is of help.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

I keep processin temps within +/-1degreeC for B&Wbut never go below16 or above 25within the whole process

With regard to temperature consistency of solutions for black & white photography, I would suggest the developer is within + or - 5 degrees above or below 68°F and the development time adjusted accordingly. But with regard to the other solutions, unless the temperature variations are extreme, it doesn’t really matter.

Thanks to all for responding.

I use dilution H for the additional time, should have mentioned that.

So it seems that ideally the temps should be comparable to each other, but for the final rinse, I'll be ok with using ambient tap.

Kirks518 said:

Thanks to all for responding.

I use dilution H for the additional time, should have mentioned that.

So it seems that ideally the temps should be comparable to each other, but for the final rinse, I'll be ok with using ambient tap.

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As long as the ambient temperature of the tap water is reasonably close - otherwise it is not such a good idea.

What are the ambient air temperatures like? If they are, for example, 76F, I'd suggest doing everything except the wash at 76F, then wash at 78F.

Ambient air in the house is about 78-80°F (my wife likes it warm), so close to ambient water temp.

I process film in a jobo processor and when the ambient temp and cold water temps are above the 20C that I always process B&W at, I have an extra 1L bottle that fits in the water bath, and which I keep in the freezer - putting this in the water bath drops the bath temp, and the jobo heats, and the 1L bottle gives me a stable 20C water bath for about an hour.

cliveh said:

With regard to temperature consistency of solutions for black & white photography, I would suggest the developer is within + or - 5 degrees above or below 68°F and the development time adjusted accordingly. But with regard to the other solutions, unless the temperature variations are extreme, it doesn’t really matter.

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A consistent temperature for the whole process cycle is important if you want to achieve the highest possible quality. lax temperature control leads to a drop in quality.

Ian

Kirks518 said:

That's what prompted the question. I try keeping everything at the same moderate temp (approx 74°F), but the rinse is, IMO, way hotter at 78-80°F.

Can I reuse the distilled water with the photoflow? I just thnk it would be a PITA to get distilled water all the time, and the wife wouldn't be happy with a stockade full in storage.

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For your rinse draw enough water for 5 changes. Use 5 one minute soaks as your rinse, This uses less water and all will be at the same temperature. Film,and paper washing is a soaking out process. The running water adds nothing except to your water bill.

Ian Grant said:

A consistent temperature for the whole process cycle is important if you want to achieve the highest possible quality. lax temperature control leads to a drop in quality.

Ian

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I beg to differ.

cliveh said:

I beg to differ.

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Having seen first hand the difference in quality between two films (Tmax400) from the same batch in exactly the same developer, stop and fixer, same equipment (thermometer, tank etc) I can assure you the difference in quality can be vast.

In fact my friends Tmax 400 120 negative had excessive graininess and the images had to be re-shot. I used 120 & 35mm that day and my 35mm negatives were much finer grained (similar sized enlargement0 compared to his 120 negative.

I watched him process his films and was shocked to find he only checked the developer temperature, not bothering with the rest. Sure some films are quite robust and you might get away with lax temperature control but others aren't so it's foolishness as you can easily ruin important images by shoddy craft.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Having seen first hand the difference in quality between two films (Tmax400) from the same batch in exactly the same developer, stop and fixer, same equipment (thermometer, tank etc) I can assure you the difference in quality can be vast.

In fact my friends Tmax 400 120 negative had excessive graininess and the images had to be re-shot. I used 120 & 35mm that day and my 35mm negatives were much finer grained (similar sized enlargement0 compared to his 120 negative.

I watched him process his films and was shocked to find he only checked the developer temperature, not bothering with the rest. Sure some films are quite robust and you might get away with lax temperature control but others aren't so it's foolishness as you can easily ruin important images by shoddy craft.

Ian

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Well can you explain to me why temperature variations in stop, fix and wash change grain size?

cliveh said:

Well can you explain to me why temperature variations in stop, fix and wash change grain size?

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There's a world of difference between the actual physical grain size in a processed film emulsion and the actual "graininess" (Kodak's term) of a subsequent print or scan.

Essentially temperature variations have an effect on the surface (super coat) of the emulsion causing surface artifacts, these have been known about since the mid 1920's when wet mounting 35mm negatives for printing was first advocated to get the highest possible quality from miniature negatives, Ctein advocated this as well.

In practice the differences are often barely noticeable but some films in certain developers are far more prone to temperature variations than others. 120 films can be the worst as they usually have a gelatin top coat on both sides. Rodinal is one developer that can cause issue because it contains Hydroxide which can softens emulsions.

Kodak had a major problem when digital minilabs were first introduced because their films didn't scan well (compared to Fuji etc) and prints were excessively grainy, it was down to these surface artifacts. Now you see Kodak advertising how their newer versions of films are more suitable for scanning.

It's not so long ago that lax temperature control could lead to the emulsion just lifting off the base, that can still happen with Fuji 400 in Rodinal (plenty of people posting about it here and on the rest of the web).

Essentially what I'm saying is lax control with one film might be no issue but with others then you run the risk of ruining your images.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

There's a world of difference between the actual physical grain size in a processed film emulsion and the actual "graininess" (Kodak's term) of a subsequent print or scan.

Essentially temperature variations have an effect on the surface (super coat) of the emulsion causing surface artifacts, these have been known about since the mid 1920's when wet mounting 35mm negatives for printing was first advocated to get the highest possible quality from miniature negatives, Ctein advocated this as well.

In practice the differences are often barely noticeable but some films in certain developers are far more prone to temperature variations than others. 120 films can be the worst as they usually have a gelatin top coat on both sides. Rodinal is one developer that can cause issue because it contains Hydroxide which can softens emulsions.

Kodak had a major problem when digital minilabs were first introduced because their films didn't scan well (compared to Fuji etc) and prints were excessively grainy, it was down to these surface artifacts. Now you see Kodak advertising how their newer versions of films are more suitable for scanning.

It's not so long ago that lax temperature control could lead to the emulsion just lifting off the base, that can still happen with Fuji 400 in Rodinal (plenty of people posting about it here and on the rest of the web).

Essentially what I'm saying is lax control with one film might be no issue but with others then you run the risk of ruining your images.

Ian

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But can you explain to me why temperature variations in stop, fix and wash change grain size?