How do you warn others about a bad lab without getting sued?

[BrianShaw]

But you CAN be sued for libel or slander!

In an court cases for libel or slander, the fundamental legal principle taught to all law students in US is, "Truth is it's own defense!"

One can get sued for anything, it seems. But doesn’t the entity suing need to show actual real legitimate damages, not just hurt feelings?

 

[wiltw]

One can get sued for anything, it seems. But doesn’t the entity suing need to show actual real legitimate damages, not just hurt feelings?

(I am not an attorney.) the judgement against the defendant accused of libel or slander:

"To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement."
​

A suit can be brought against someone with less, but it is PROOF provided by plaintiff that requires all the above, to get any award. But again, TRUTH is the ultimate defense against any claim of libel or slander, in the US.

 

[Huss]

All the film labs I've been to in California have crazy good business.

I have had terrible results and service from TheDarkroom.com, several times. And they did not try to make good.
So I mention it as a public service announcement to others here. They also are very expensive.

Fantastic results and service from northcoastphoto and TheFindLab for dev and scan.
Samy's Camera has been very good for developing (their scans not so good)
MikesCamera has been very good for developing. (did not try any other services from them).

 

[Wayne]

(I am not an attorney.) the judgement against the defendant accused of libel or slander:

"To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement."
​

A suit can be brought against someone with less, but it is PROOF provided by plaintiff that requires all the above, to get any award. But again, TRUTH is the ultimate defense against any claim of libel or slander, in the US.

that won't get you any award, it will just keep your case from being dismissed before it gets off the ground

 

[Auer]

Yelp is utter garbage.

https://thehustle.co/botto-bistro-1-star-yelp/

 

[Wayne]

I'm curious now because I've been seeing things with my recently processed films and wondering if I did all those things myself with carelessness or if they really came back from the lab that way. Been thinking about starting a thread too, but don't want to name names. The lab in my case is in the NW.

 

[BrianShaw]

I don’t know... ideally truth wins but if the other guy has the better lawyer...

Probably a small claims court... no lawyers in many jurisdictions.

But no matter... your point is well taken... a big pain in the neck of the other guy pushes the issue to a court.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

But you CAN be sued for libel or slander!

In an court cases for libel or slander, the fundamental legal principle taught to all law students in US is, "Truth is it's own defense!"

Of course you can, but then, that’s not an opinion is it?

 

[Huss]

I'm curious now because I've been seeing things with my recently processed films and wondering if I did all those things myself with carelessness or if they really came back from the lab that way. Been thinking about starting a thread too, but don't want to name names. The lab in my case is in the NW.

What have you been seeing and what is the name of the lab?

 

[MattKing]

I guess you’re right, but what if it isn’t small claims court? What if the guy sues you for a million dollars? I know, I know... it wouldn’t get that far or would be thrown out etc. I’m paranoid about this sort of thing (along with most other things lol). You get your film back with dirt and scratches, you post a review saying that, next thing you know you’re bankrupt because your review apparently cost the lab multi-millions in potential revenue not to mention pain and suffering and the lab owner lost his marriage over it and had ten million dollars in hospital bills because he fell down when he read the review...

That is why you, being in Montreal, should try to use a Canadian lab.
Canadian superior courts give much smaller damage awards, rarely let juries get involved with cases like this, are careful to make sure that compensation is for only what can be proved and force unsuccessful parties to pay at least a substantial portion of the winning party's legal expenses.
At least in BC, you can't bring a libel action in small claims. Slander doesn't apply, because that is for spoken words, not published ones.

 

[wiltw]

Of course you can, but then, that’s not an opinion is it?

No, stating an opinion is not necessarily true, and that is when you can get yourself into trouble for damages.

That is why you stick to proveable facts. Truths.

 

[MattKing]

Slander doesn't apply, because that is for spoken words, not published ones.

Today I learned!

And the tests are slightly different, so you can have the really fun situation where someone says something in public, someone else publishes what was said, an aggrieved party sues the first for slander and the second for libel, and the defenses presented in court are different!
Truth remains a defense in all cases.

 

[Wayne]

What have you been seeing and what is the name of the lab?

Like I said, I don't want to name names unless it seems likely other people are having similar problems with the same place in the NW. I can be careless at times so I don't want to rule out that I am the source of some of the problems. But I don't think I would crease a negative without knowing it, especially the best shot on the roll. Other problems are fingerprints (now that I might do...) scratches and one large dark blob that looks like it had to occur in processing.

 

[tballphoto]

There are several "independent" film labs out west, that are SO independent they use the same letter head, same coloring, same font, same spacing. the ONLY thing that is different is the address and individual company name. It is very hard to tell the forms apart.

They even charge the same amount for everything, and they seem to send it to a different lab for processiong. They are NOT PRO in any means of the word. I dont expect much for 5$ a roll C41 or 8.35$ a roll bw but i DO expect

1. proper development
2. fresh chemicals to be used
3. machines not to be stopped during processing

Its just a fact of life folks. Film in the means of development is either in your hand or just left to a few places that charge an arm and a leg to do it.

 

[Huss]

Like I said, I don't want to name names unless it seems likely other people are having similar problems with the same place in the NW. I can be careless at times so I don't want to rule out that I am the source of some of the problems. But I don't think I would crease a negative without knowing it, especially the best shot on the roll. Other problems are fingerprints (now that I might do...) scratches and one large dark blob that looks like it had to occur in processing.

First thing you've got to do is figure out where the problem lies - you or the lab.
If you are careless enough to not know whether you're fingerprinting your negs, you'd be careless enough to also crease them.

 

[Wayne]

First thing you've got to do is figure out where the problem lies - you or the lab.
If you are careless enough to not know whether you're fingerprinting your negs, you'd be careless enough to also crease them.

I think I know what I'm capable of.

 

[AgX]

You can say what you want without getting sued. It's free speech. Your opinion isn't subject to lawsuit.

-) bad critique indeed had been subject of law suits

-) it very much depends what legal system applies on postings done on Photrio

-) "say what you want" and "your opinion" already may be very different things, a difference already of legal implication

 

[ChristopherCoy]

-) bad critique indeed had been subject of law suits

-) it very much depends what legal system applies on postings done on Photrio

-) "say what you want" and "your opinion" already may be very different things, a difference already of legal implication

Well y’all can sit around and stress over whether or not to be sued. I’ll be busy posting my opinions if bad service is received and no attempt is made to correct it.

 

[AgX]

Well, ye are not sitting in Germany.

 

[removed account4]

It's a dilemma...

I sent 14 rolls of film to a lab I have never tried and it came back... filthy.

Processed only and wrapped in clear cellophane strips, it is chock full of dust, dirt and even hairs; cat if I am correct.

While the lab did everything I asked, and more, like returning all spools and backing paper, the amount of dirt and debris in the cellophane strips around the negatives and slides is horrific.

Now, I will confess that about 3/4 of this film was a write-off anyway. It consisted of film found in cameras I bought or film I had shot years ago and kept in the fridge WAY beyond time to have it processed, but the other 1/3 was recent.

The actual processing appears to be good.

But...

Wow. What filth.

yikes
sounds like the CLA I got years back
and the repair job I got from the folder-guy 12 years ago

best thing to do is contact the lab and show them the film is a mess
and see what they say
then post a thread in the hidden from search engine section here
and just list the facts and a picture of the film so people can be warned

life's too short for a bad lab

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

All the film labs I've been to in California have crazy good business.

I have had terrible results and service from TheDarkroom.com, several times. And they did not try to make good.
So I mention it as a public service announcement to others here. They also are very expensive.

Fantastic results and service from northcoastphoto and TheFindLab for dev and scan.
Samy's Camera has been very good for developing (their scans not so good)
MikesCamera has been very good for developing. (did not try any other services from them).

I've had good developing experience with North Coast Photo Service (NCPS) in California as well. Also LTI Lightside (BW only. They stopped doing chromes) and CRC Vista FIlm- both in NYC.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

And the tests are slightly different, so you can have the really fun situation where someone says something in public, someone else publishes what was said, an aggrieved party sues the first for slander and the second for libel, and the defenses presented in court are different!
Truth remains a defense in all cases.

But opinion may have nothing to do with truth. If I say, "They stink. Their service is terrible. I wouldn't use them again in a thousand years.." That's opinion, not truth. It's still not libel or slander.

Now if I say, "They're a bunch of crooks. They charged my credit card twice and stole money from me." and that isn't true, that's actionable.

 

[AgX]

To finally add something substantial to this thread:

We got a somewhat veiled forum for such cases this thread is about.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/discussion-hidden-from-search-engines.67/

 

[Kino]

OK, so I called the lab and spoke to the service representative. First of all, I thanked them for returning my 120 spools and backing paper as requested. Then I told her about the dirt, dust and hair in the film sleeves.

She listened to my complaint and promised to "check it out". When I inquired what that meant, she said she would talk to the "people in the back" to see if she could determine what happened.

I then told her I would be reluctant to use their service again if this would happen again and asked her what would be her suggestion to rectify the situation. She then told me to send "another roll" to process and they would be sure it was clean when it was returned, but the offer was not explicitly a "make good" roll and no mention was made this roll being processed for free.

When I asked if she would call me back to let me know what she found out she basically kept repeating that she would "check it out" and did not offer a return call or explanation. Actually trying to be helpful, I stressed that she really needed to determine how this happened, as if they processed a lot of film that day, they might get a lot of complaints. She once again repeated that it had never happened before and she would "check it out".

I said thank you, exchanged good-byes and ended the call.

Fulltone Photo, 2824 N. HWY 53, La Grange, KY 40031

I will post photos of the film sleeves tonight when I get back from work and let you all determine if this is a lab you would consider using in the future.

Now that it's Spring, it's time to dig-in and finish my darkroom. I have a Jobo; no need for this anymore...

 

[MattKing]

But opinion may have nothing to do with truth. If I say, "They stink. Their service is terrible. I wouldn't use them again in a thousand years.." That's opinion, not truth. It's still not libel or slander.

It is a lot more subtle than that Alan.
Saying that their service is terrible may be actionable, if the service was actually good, and the reviewer knew that but intentionally and falsely posted a bad review.
Probably only matters though if the reviewer is someone well known whose opinions are relied upon by others.