How do you test BLIX is working?

Mike Chalmers · Feb 23, 2019

Hello, first post but have dipped in and out recently.

I've been processing my own C41 for a few months and thoroughly enjoying it.

I've had an issue the past few rolls, which I believe is down to my Blix, as I found sediment in it. I've effectively filtered it all out, using double-bagged coffee filters, but I would like to know any methods for testing the efficacy of the blix I have.

I have ordered new chemicals, but I would like to get as much knowledge as I can, so I can troubleshoot later issues, so I'm happy (well, prepared) to lose a roll if needs must.

I use the Tetenal Colourtec kit in a Jobo CPE2.

Thanks

j-stewart · Feb 23, 2019

Mike,
First thing I noticed is that you're using the CPE2, which is a serious tool, and therefore suggests you are a serious photographer. So, how I respond to your question will try to keep that in mind.

First, BLIX is a mixture of two separate chemicals, each having their own purpose for being there. The BLeach removes developed halides (i.e., silver). The fIXer removes all undeveloped halide salts.
The mixture of the bleach with the fixer is not entirely compatible. While the bleach is relatively stable over time and use, the fixer is not. There is no good way to replenish the fixer when mixed with bleach, because exhaustion of fixer is most determined by the amount of fixing by-product that accumulates during processing of film. (I think it's bromides that actually exhaust fixer action).

To test blixing function I do this. At working temperature, process a short piece of any B&W film in the BLIX at working temps and time. If the film ends up being completely clear, your BLIX is functioning properly. If it ends being 'foggy', your fixer is likely exhausted. If it ends up having any density (darkened), your Bleach is likely exhausted. Luckily, if your film suffers from either bleaching and/or fixing, you can re-blix with fresh solution and save it.

Any precipitate that forms in the BLIX indicates things are all f''' up and you should replace the blix entirely. Filtering is just asking for trouble.

C41 bleach will last a long time if cared for (I use mine for months). But it won't last long when mixed with fixer. If your workflow in the jobo permits it, I recommend you mix bleach and fixer separately; replenish the bleach with aeration before each session. Test the fixer as above frequently and replace with cheap thiosulfate solution when needed. Sources of bleach and thiosulfate solutions easily found on the web.

Hope this helps.
Jim

Mike Chalmers · Feb 23, 2019

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your swift and thorough response. Very helpful indeed. I have three follow up questions, but your reply was just what I was looking for.

1. Do you recommend any chemical systems, I'm UK-based and develop anywhere between 20 - 80 films per month?

2. How do I

j-stewart said:
replenish the bleach with aeration

3.

j-stewart said:
replace with cheap thiosulfate solution

- this is new to me, can you expand a little?

Thank you again.

Mike

koraks · Feb 23, 2019

While a blix seems convenient, a separate bleach and fix offers:
* better chemical stability
* reduced risk of silver retention
* better economics in the long run, particularly if you buy somewhat larger volumes (bleach and fix concentrates keep very well)

Blix is OK for RA4 paper, but I personally find it too much of a compromise and risk for film.

A sidenote: the 'aeration replenishment' trick with bleach sounds nice, but it's not a true replenishment obviously. Proper replenishment or replacement is more effective. Since a Jobo system is very efficient in terms of chemistry volumes, just use the bleach and fix a few times and chuck them out and make some fresh stuff. Alternatively, refer to the specifications of your chemistry for proper replenishment rates.

FYI, I use Fuji minilab bleach and fix. Dirt cheap, very effective.

Anon Ymous · Feb 23, 2019

Aeration of bleach oxidises Iron in it from +2 to the +3 state and makes bleach as potent as it was initially. But in order to convert metallic silver back to halide, Ammonium Bromide is also required. If it has been used up, then aeration will not be of much use, so replenishment is required. I have extended the life of C41 bleach by adding Ammonium Bromide after some point and it worked fine, although pH adjustment is theoretically also required to keep it in spec. But then, extending bleaching time solves most problems you are likely to encounter. BTW, gelatinous material will build up in a reused bleach solution, coffee filters take care of that and make it crystal clear.

Anon Ymous · Feb 23, 2019

koraks said:
... FYI, I use Fuji minilab bleach and fix. Dirt cheap, very effective.

Would you mind telling us the exact bleach you use and your source?

Photo Engineer · Feb 23, 2019

Any Blix for any color film is questionable IMHO. Too much Silver and Silver halide and too much Iodide and other restrainers.

PE

koraks · Feb 23, 2019

Anon Ymous said:
Would you mind telling us the exact bleach you use and your source?

From a German retailer I purchase fuji color chemistry for various purposes. The current bleach and fix I use are from the CN16 series; I'd have to check which ones specifically, but I just looked for availability and referred to the fuji datasheets to establish if and how it could be used in a manual processing setup. Since I buy packs of a few liters at once, initial costs are higher than for a home c41 kit, but I get an order of magnitude more chemistry.

Lachlan Young · Feb 23, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Hi Jim,

Thank you for your swift and thorough response. Very helpful indeed. I have three follow up questions, but your reply was just what I was looking for.

1. Do you recommend any chemical systems, I'm UK-based and develop anywhere between 20 - 80 films per month?

2. How do I

3. - this is new to me, can you expand a little?

Thank you again.

Mike

I'd strongly recommend the Fuji 5L x-press kit - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-c41-x-press-kit-5l-680-p.asp - if you are needing more capacity, then you'll want to go to the more industrial sized units which are more in the 20L range. The Fuji kit is the full-fat 3-bath setup & works superbly in a Jobo.

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
I'd strongly recommend the Fuji 5L x-press kit - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-c41-x-press-kit-5l-680-p.asp - if you are needing more capacity, then you'll want to go to the more industrial sized units which are more in the 20L range.

Mike Chalmers said:
1. Do you recommend any chemical systems, I'm UK-based and develop anywhere between 20 - 80 films per month?

This amount of film processed every month would definitely warrant larger sized units. Film processing chemistry gets much cheaper at these larger sizes.

Mike Chalmers · Feb 24, 2019

Thanks so much everyone, I'm definitely sold on getting separate bleach and fix the next time I purchase chemicals - I wish I'd come here before ordering more Tetenal!

Lachlan Young said:
I'd strongly recommend the Fuji 5L x-press kit - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-c41-x-press-kit-5l-680-p.asp - if you are needing more capacity, then you'll want to go to the more industrial sized units which are more in the 20L range. The Fuji kit is the full-fat 3-bath setup & works superbly in a Jobo.

I actually ordered from AG Photographic this time and was looking at the Press Kit before opting for the Tetenal! As you mention, 3-bath setup was what put me off at the time as I wasn't sure about the final stage and whether I should be using photo-flo or stabiliser etc. But on further inspection, it does include stabiliser, so does this mean it's a 4-bath setup, or does stabiliser not count in darkroom lingo?

Anyway, thanks again and I'm really happy to be part of this community!

Cheers

Mike

koraks · Feb 24, 2019

Stabilizer is often not included in the bath count. @PhotoEngineer has posted a thread with excellent information on stabilizing/conditioner baths for color; it's stickied in this forum. I personally use a final bath of water with a few drops of 10% formalin and a few drops of surfactant. I do this in a separate tray to prevent the stuff from lingering in my tanks and reels. While the formaldehyde/formalin is not strictly necessary for C41 films, I use the same bath for ECN-2 and C41 and the formalin should at least inhibit fungus growth in the long term, as well as stabilize the dyes in ECN2 film (the latter is not necessary for C41).

Mike Chalmers · Feb 24, 2019

Interesting, I'll have a look - but is there any issue using the bundled stabiliser with the Fuji press kit?

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2019

If Fuji's kit has a stabilizer (I think it does), then that's all you need. Make sure you mix it with distilled water, otherwise you may end up with nasty water marks on your film. Do not rinse after STAB.

Mike Chalmers · Feb 24, 2019

Yeah, perfect. Yes, I just bought 5 bottles of water as part of my chemical clean-up - I had found out we have hard water with a lot of limescale.

Thanks

Lachlan Young · Feb 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Thanks so much everyone, I'm definitely sold on getting separate bleach and fix the next time I purchase chemicals - I wish I'd come here before ordering more Tetenal!

I actually ordered from AG Photographic this time and was looking at the Press Kit before opting for the Tetenal! As you mention, 3-bath setup was what put me off at the time as I wasn't sure about the final stage and whether I should be using photo-flo or stabiliser etc. But on further inspection, it does include stabiliser, so does this mean it's a 4-bath setup, or does stabiliser not count in darkroom lingo?

Anyway, thanks again and I'm really happy to be part of this community!

Cheers

Mike

It's 3-bath with post-wash stabilisation. Comes with comprehensive instructions. If you are looking for 20L quantities, Process Supplies may be a better bet - Dev/ Bleach/ Fix/ Stab will run to about £200-ish.

Mike Chalmers · Feb 24, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
It's 3-bath with post-wash stabilisation. Comes with comprehensive instructions. If you are looking for 20L quantities, Process Supplies may be a better bet - Dev/ Bleach/ Fix/ Stab will run to about £200-ish.

Thanks Lachlan - good to know. I might go with the 5L and then see how it goes.

Do you recommend running the stabiliser through the Jobo, because I've heard others have put it in a tub, with little agitation? I've always run it through the Jobo on setting '1' (slower).

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Do you recommend running the stabiliser through the Jobo, because I've heard others have put it in a tub, with little agitation? I've always run it through the Jobo on setting '1' (slower).

When I started home processing, I read thread after thread in which people desperately and hand wringingly warned against using STAB inside Jobo tanks, the Formaldehyde would gum up the spindles quickly, and all hell would break lose. Lazy slob that I was I ignored all these warnings and started doing STAB in my Jobo tanks, figuring "I'll clean them out and change procedure if it really comes to that". It's been 10+ years since then, hundreds and hundreds of rolls processed, and none of them had any issue, neither with the Tetenal STAB, now with home brew STAB. I don't STAB in the rotary processor, though, since I wash my film outside the processor to free it up for the next batch to be processed. But the film definitely stays on the spindles during STAB - and NEVER did I have a trace of a problem with that.

PS: You do realize that these 20 liter kits are barely more expensive than Fuji's 5 liter kit, yes ? I really get the impression, that 90% of the cost of such kits is spent on red tape required when offering them to end users.

Lachlan Young · Feb 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Thanks Lachlan - good to know. I might go with the 5L and then see how it goes.

Do you recommend running the stabiliser through the Jobo, because I've heard others have put it in a tub, with little agitation? I've always run it through the Jobo on setting '1' (slower).

I just dip the film in the mixed stabiliser afterwards in the drum sat upright in the sink - there's no point in inducing masses of foam by agitation. Wash all the tank parts thoroughly afterwards & you'll be fine.

Lachlan Young · Feb 24, 2019

Rudeofus said:
When I started home processing, I read thread after thread in which people desperately and hand wringingly warned against using STAB inside Jobo tanks, the Formaldehyde would gum up the spindles quickly, and all hell would break lose. Lazy slob that I was I ignored all these warnings and started doing STAB in my Jobo tanks, figuring "I'll clean them out and change procedure if it really comes to that". It's been 10+ years since then, hundreds and hundreds of rolls processed, and none of them had any issue, neither with the Tetenal STAB, now with home brew STAB. I don't STAB in the rotary processor, though, since I wash my film outside the processor to free it up for the next batch to be processed. But the film definitely stays on the spindles during STAB - and NEVER did I have a trace of a problem with that.

PS: You do realize that these 20 liter kits are barely more expensive than Fuji's 5 liter kit, yes ? I really get the impression, that 90% of the cost of such kits is spent on red tape required when offering them to end users.

The formaldehyde has been gone from the stabiliser for some time - early 2000's I think - PE explained that there was a coupler change related directly to this. There were Fuji (and new Kodak E100) changes in E-6 too, which I understand related to the same thing.

And I'd suggest that starting out on a reasonable scale rather than dropping a few hundred pounds on a lot of chemistry straight off the bat is sensible - once comfortable with the 5L kit, 20L is a lot less intimidating. The price difference is maybe £1 a litre between the 5L & 20L kits.

koraks · Feb 24, 2019

I sure don't spend anywhere near £200 for 20l of c41 chemistry. I'd have to check my bills etc, but I estimate it's less than half that amount.

Mike Chalmers · Feb 24, 2019

I noticed that Process Supplies are selling it about £200, so it's really not much of a saving - but I'd be interested to hear about 20l for £100 if it's a variety you'd recommend.

My plan is to go through my Tetenal (arrives tomorrow) over the next month then try out the Fuji Press Kit.

koraks · Feb 24, 2019

Some searching on ebay could be useful. I get the bleach and fix from whomever happens to be selling; it's usually fuji minilab stuff, I'm currently using CN16L bleach and Negacolor fix. As to the developer, I admit that I cheat - I mix it from scratch due to the fact that CD4 stores quite well in dry form so I don't have to worry about my developer having gone off. Stabilizer I also mix myself because someone once gave me a small bottle of formalin. Both developer and stabilizer can and so be found in minilab volumes of course.

Rudeofus · Feb 24, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
And I'd suggest that starting out on a reasonable scale rather than dropping a few hundred pounds on a lot of chemistry straight off the bat is sensible - once comfortable with the 5L kit, 20L is a lot less intimidating. The price difference is maybe £1 a litre between the 5L & 20L kits.

As he states in the original posting, Mike runs through 20-80 rolls of C-41 film per months. This is not what I would call "starting out". Even at average volume a 20l kit should last him only a few months.

lantau · Feb 24, 2019

koraks said:
as well as stabilize the dyes in ECN2 film (the latter is not necessary for C41).

ecn2 dyes are stable. The Kodak process does not use Formaldehyde anywhere.

About biocide... In all the discussions here and elsewhere I've never found a definite information which compounds that could be and what concentration you'd need to have for enough to enter the emulsion and be effective.

Formaldehyde can do it, because it forms chemical adducts in the emulsion but remains available.

I think all the other stuff is just a preservative for the concentrate itself, not the film. Photoflo solutions rot quickly.

Myself I cooked up Formalin and added some to Photoflo 200. But with the OP doing 20-80 rolls a week(?) that's not healthy.

How do you test BLIX is working?

Mike Chalmers

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