How do YOU pre-soak?

[MattKing]

Partial quote..



I don't understand that bit myself, so hopefully I am on the correct course.


At the end of dev, fix and wash, I transfer the loaded film spiral to a separate bowl of fresh water with a tiny amount of wetting agent. My wetting agent does not go anywhere near the tank. Then the emptied spiral is given a thorough good wash.

If you are adding wetting agent to the tank for the final rinse is, there a possibility that the tank is assumed to be clean after all the rinsing,and not being thoroughly washed clean of the wetting agent?
So you end up with the developer wetting agent, plus the residue wetting agent from the previous final rinse.

I have been very lucky and never had a frothy brew.

The OP is referencing the trace amounts of surfactant that are added by the manufacturer to certain film emulsions in order to ensure even wetting at the time of development - most likely to avoid problems with some commercial dip and dunk lines.

 

[pbromaghin]

It seems you want to know how you should pre-soak, not how we do it. So might I be so bold:

You need to remove the surfactants from the film to both prevent accumulation in your replenished developer and prevent uneven development. Not fully removing enough of the surfactants will cause uneven development. Really, you are after a pre-wash, not a pre-soak (the terms are not interchangeable).

So, you need to proceed like your were washing film. A fill-and-dump regime if you're using tanks or a running-water or multi-tray regime if you're using sheet fill seems necessary to me. A longer time than what is needed to saturate the emulsion would also seem in order.

I'd start with a five-minute soak with changes of water and gentle, continuous agitation. Tap water is just fine; if you can wash your film with it, you can pre-soak in it as well. Use the same temperature as the rest of your process.

If you still have foaming problems with your developer or uneven development problems after that, then you'll need to extend the pre-wash.

Best,

Doremus

Hmmmm. Very perceptive. I hadn't thought of pre-soak and pre-wash as 2 different processes, but that an assembly of APUG wisdom would give clues on how to go about it.

I wonder, would it be worthwhile to include Harmon Washaid, normally used on papers?

 

[pbromaghin]

Partial quote..

I don't understand that bit myself, so hopefully I am on the correct course.

Any debate concerning the benefit or lack thereof with presoak usually ends up going round and round, with arguments between minds that have been firmly made up and may end in insults with one of the participants melting down and leaving after having the mods delete all record of his ever having been here.

 

[pbromaghin]

I wonder, would it be worthwhile to include Harmon Washaid, normally used on papers?

I just realized how dumb this would be. Washing off one substance and replacing it with another?

 

[Photosandpotatoes]

Illuminating thread! I’ve been wondering how others do this.

It seems you want to know how you should pre-soak, not how we do it. So might I be so bold:

You need to remove the surfactants from the film to both prevent accumulation in your replenished developer and prevent uneven development. Not fully removing enough of the surfactants will cause uneven development. Really, you are after a pre-wash, not a pre-soak (the terms are not interchangeable).

So, you need to proceed like your were washing film. A fill-and-dump regime if you're using tanks or a running-water or multi-tray regime if you're using sheet fill seems necessary to me. A longer time than what is needed to saturate the emulsion would also seem in order.

I'd start with a five-minute soak with changes of water and gentle, continuous agitation. Tap water is just fine; if you can wash your film with it, you can pre-soak in it as well. Use the same temperature as the rest of your process.

If you still have foaming problems with your developer or uneven development problems after that, then you'll need to extend the pre-wash.

Best,

Doremus

What’s the difference between presoak and pre wash? When would you do one vs the other?

 

[Craig]

I wonder, would it be worthwhile to include Harmon Washaid, normally used on papers?

No, because that is intended to remove the residual fixer compounds. At the stage of processing you are contemplating, there isn't anything for it to work on.

Thinking of the foaming, are you making sure the tanks are scrupulously clean so there is no wetting agent carry over, and are you also observing the capacity? D76 can only be replenished a finite amount and there is a hard limit to the amount of film that can go through a replentished solution before it must be dumped.

 

[Vaughn]

Illuminating thread! I’ve been wondering how others do this.



What’s the difference between presoak and pre wash? When would you do one vs the other?

I'm trying to previsualize a presoak and/or a prewash. Prior to using developer (the 'pre' part) I suppose one would soak the emulsion just to get it swelled, wet, and ready. And one would wash the emulsion to remove any water soluable additives to the emulsion. It seems it would be difficult not to have a soak also be a wash.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

General answer: at processing temp for min 5min with intermittent agitation every 30s

 

[pbromaghin]

No, because that is intended to remove the residual fixer compounds. At the stage of processing you are contemplating, there isn't anything for it to work on.

Thinking of the foaming, are you making sure the tanks are scrupulously clean so there is no wetting agent carry over, and are you also observing the capacity? D76 can only be replenished a finite amount and there is a hard limit to the amount of film that can go through a replentished solution before it must be dumped.

It’s only halfway through the replenishment routine and none of my tanks or reels have been touched by photoflo in over 5 years. So we’re safe there.

 

[runswithsizzers]

I've been pre-washing evey b&w negative film with temperature-adjusted tap water for 60 seconds with constant agitation. However, I have been experiencing some uneven development with 120 film, only, so I should probably try skipping the pre-wash to see if that helps. Either that, or doubling my pre-wash time.

Agitation, surge, and uneven development?

I have been noticing pale edges on my darkroom prints from b&w 120 negatives. My assumption is, this may be caused by "surge" -- that is, an increase in development at the edge of the reels due to turbulence when agitating. I am using stainless steel tanks and reels, sometimes one 120 reel in a...

www.photrio.com

I have been very lucky and never had a frothy brew.

I would consider myself very unlucky if I was not able to enjoy a frothy brew at least once a week. And unless things have changed since I was last there, you have some very good frothy brews on your side of the Atlantic. ;-)

 

[Sirius Glass]

Illuminating thread! I’ve been wondering how others do this.



What’s the difference between presoak and pre wash? When would you do one vs the other?

Both are the same operation. So there are no differences.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Illuminating thread! I’ve been wondering how others do this.



What’s the difference between presoak and pre wash? When would you do one vs the other?

Well, it's nit-picky semantics actually, but here's the distinction. You would soak film to wet the emulsion with water and let it absorb as much as it can so that the gelatin was in its fully hydrated state before developing. Some think this helps with evenness; it definitely helps keeping sheet film from sticking together. Pre-soaking before development is not really necessary if the film can be immersed quickly and evenly in the developer.

A pre-wash would be to remove something from the emulsion before development, in this case, the surfactant that the manufacturer puts in the emulsion to aid in developer penetration and even development with machine processing. The idea is to remove that so it won't cause foaming by building up in the replenished developer. Sure, the emulsion gets soaked and saturated with water in the process, like a pre-soak, but that's not the goal; the goal is to remove something.

Removing something from the emulsion, like a surfactant, will likely take longer than it would take for the emulsion to swell completely with water, and might need some agitation to help the process, hence my recommendation to use a longer pre-wash than a soak and to agitate as well.

See, there are some differences

Hope that answers your question.

Doremus

 

[David Lyga]

I have some Kodak ImageLink microfilm. If I presoak, there is no emulsion left. This is the only film that seems to do that. - David Lyga

 

[MCB18]

I do pre-soak as most of my films have any-Hal dyes that come off in the dev if you don’t. It doesn’t do any harm but I still try and avoid it.

 

[Maris]

I don't pre-soak I pre-wash: at least four changes of water with agitation with the aim being to remove every soluble molecule from the exposed film before development. This is done to prevent those soluble molecules accumulating in my replenished Xtol. The process seems to work since my present batch of Xtol has been working predictably from 2021 when it was first mixed until today. Replenishment at 90ml per film plus a slight increase in development time allows for the little bit of water carry over from the pre-washing stage.

 

[Photosandpotatoes]

Well, it's nit-picky semantics actually, but here's the distinction. You would soak film to wet the emulsion with water and let it absorb as much as it can so that the gelatin was in its fully hydrated state before developing. Some think this helps with evenness; it definitely helps keeping sheet film from sticking together. Pre-soaking before development is not really necessary if the film can be immersed quickly and evenly in the developer.

A pre-wash would be to remove something from the emulsion before development, in this case, the surfactant that the manufacturer puts in the emulsion to aid in developer penetration and even development with machine processing. The idea is to remove that so it won't cause foaming by building up in the replenished developer. Sure, the emulsion gets soaked and saturated with water in the process, like a pre-soak, but that's not the goal; the goal is to remove something.

Removing something from the emulsion, like a surfactant, will likely take longer than it would take for the emulsion to swell completely with water, and might need some agitation to help the process, hence my recommendation to use a longer pre-wash than a soak and to agitate as well.

See, there are some differences

Hope that answers your question.

Doremus

This is super detailed and very helpful! Thank you for taking the time to explain.