How do YOU pre-soak?

pbromaghin · Apr 21, 2025

I am determined to continue developing with replenished D-76 because I like how the negatives look. However, the surfactant that Ilford puts on HP5, FP4 and, PanF, eventually causes the developer to foam up like a bubble bath. It has been suggested that a proper pre-soak is one way to prevent this. That leads to the question - How?

For those pre-soakers, how do you do it? What kind of water? Tap? Filtered? Distilled? Something else?

Do you agitate, or let it sit?

How long do you pre-soak?

Anything that I can't think of...

This isn't about whether or not - that dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp.

Thanks,
Peter

Paul Howell · Apr 21, 2025

I only pre soake if recommended by the manufacturer of the developer. I generally use tap water at the same temp as the developer, I do not agitate and soak again following recommendations by the manufacture. I do use D76, usually 1:1, I do not replenish and I don't pre soak. When I was using MCM I did pre soak for 1 mint. Currently I use Diafine and Acufine without pre soak. With a divided developer pre soaking is not recommended as less developer A soaks in. I seldom use ILford films, what does ILford recommend.

mshchem · Apr 21, 2025

I don't do to much of this these days. However when I did I used running tap water from a thermostatic mixing valve. Almost like the Paterson Force film washer. I would stick a rubber hose into the tank and let it run for a couple minutes. Primarily to get the tank upto temperature.

Prewashing is very satisfying to see the dyes come out. I don't think it accomplishes much, except in your situation the bubbly stuff. Not sure how to quantify the situation.

In the heyday Prewashing was unheard of in commercial labs.

To the best of my knowledge.

MattKing · Apr 21, 2025

I use room temperature tap water - usually after having allowed it to come to room temperature over time, naturally.
I use it for three minutes of continuous reversing rotary agitation.
Three points:
1) our tap water is quite good, and very "soft";
2) I use T-Max 400 and T-Max 100 roll films almost exclusively; and
3) I use replenished XTol.

logan2z · Apr 21, 2025

I pre-wash using 68°F water (the same temp as my developer) for 3 minutes, agitating continuously for the first 30 seconds and letting the tank stand for the remaining 2.5 minutes. I do it for HP5 and FP4, the only two film stocks I use at the moment.

laingsoft · Apr 21, 2025

I don't really do it. The only real exception is when I'm doing Foma 400 in medium format. In that case I find the dyes take forever to come out after fixing if I don't prewash.

Typically 3-4 minutes, tap water at the same temperature as a dev.

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2025

I fill the tank with tap water straight out of the tap. Then I do a quick agitate, then put the tank down and attend to everything else--I mix the developer then read the temp. Its almost always too warm, so I put the mixed the dev in the freezer. Stop and fix are reused so I pull the bottles for those, loosen the caps and put them in the correct order on the counter. Then I check the developer temp to see if its at 20C. When it is, I pull it from the freezer, dump the presoak and start developing. Given that time to temp can range from 0 minutes to 10 minutes (my cold water runs up to about 32C in the summer) this is all just very approximate. The main reason I do it, is I had a higher chance of bubbles not dislodging when I did no presoak so to improve the likelihood of positive outcomes, I always do at least a little presoak.

Vaughn · Apr 21, 2025

5 minutes at developing temp in a Jobo Expert Drum on a motor base.

mpirie · Apr 22, 2025

Vaughn said:
5 minutes at developing temp in a Jobo Expert Drum on a motor base.

3 minutes in tap water in Expert drums on a CPA2 for me.

It helps bring the tank and film up to 20 deg before the developer is added, since my darkroom is in the garage and can get cold!

Mike

Sidd · Apr 22, 2025

In the hot Indian summer when the room temperature is above 30 deg C, I do use presoaking to bring down the temperature of the tank and film to development temperature, usually for 2 minutes with agitation for first 30 seconds.

chuckroast · Apr 22, 2025

pbromaghin said:
I am determined to continue developing with replenished D-76 because I like how the negatives look. However, the surfactant that Ilford puts on HP5, FP4 and, PanF, eventually causes the developer to foam up like a bubble bath. It has been suggested that a proper pre-soak is one way to prevent this. That leads to the question - How?

For those pre-soakers, how do you do it? What kind of water? Tap? Filtered? Distilled? Something else?

Do you agitate, or let it sit?

How long do you pre-soak?

Anything that I can't think of...

This isn't about whether or not - that dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp.

Thanks,
Peter

3 min in tap water at dev temp.

For open tanks it is continuously running water. For daylight tanks it's a single fill, agitate, and rest.

khh · Apr 22, 2025

I presoak for B&W as I use replenished XTOL. I'm not super scientific about the presoak, just use tap water at process temperature and make sure all the film is equally wetted. I might fill the tank before getting the chemicals ready, or do some dump and fill cycles or if doing rotary run through two cycles of water. As long as it's above a minimum and not completely excessive, I'm pretty sure the details shouldn't matter much.

Rick A · Apr 22, 2025

Everything I process is done on a Unicolor drum on a motor base for a minimum of three minutes at developing temperature.

loccdor · Apr 22, 2025

I presoak always, unless explicitly forbidden by the instructions, I think Adox CMS 20 II was that case if I remember correctly.

Same temperature as developer, so usually 20C for black and white, or 39C for C-41/E-6. This also has the advantage of the cold tank not causing an initial temperature drop for high-temp development.

I agitate with the stick in a 2 or 3 reel manual Paterson tank and change the presoak water 5-10 times. Just running the faucet at the correct temperature, filling, agitating, dumping, repeat. I'm aiming for all the soapy bubbles and remnants of wetting agent to be gone, plus any colored dyes that the film has. This should theoretically help reusable developers last longer.

While presoaking I'm letting the C-41 or E-6 developer come up to temperature in the other half of the dual sink, or mixing up the black and white developer.

I don't alter the development times at all.

dpurdy · Apr 22, 2025

I am old enough to predate Tmax films. At that time I worked in a commercial studio and a Kodak rep came by and said that we should increase the presoak to 2 minutes. I have done that ever since using trays for sheet film and dip and dunk for roll film. In both cases I agitate almost non stop.
Then a few years ago I was developing a bunch of 8x10 Ilford Hp5 and kept getting processing marks and streaks. I finally dug out a Ilford lab book and it said that Ilford film should not be presoaked. So I stopped that and the marks and streaks went away.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 22, 2025

It seems you want to know how you should pre-soak, not how we do it. So might I be so bold:

You need to remove the surfactants from the film to both prevent accumulation in your replenished developer and prevent uneven development. Not fully removing enough of the surfactants will cause uneven development. Really, you are after a pre-wash, not a pre-soak (the terms are not interchangeable).

So, you need to proceed like your were washing film. A fill-and-dump regime if you're using tanks or a running-water or multi-tray regime if you're using sheet fill seems necessary to me. A longer time than what is needed to saturate the emulsion would also seem in order.

I'd start with a five-minute soak with changes of water and gentle, continuous agitation. Tap water is just fine; if you can wash your film with it, you can pre-soak in it as well. Use the same temperature as the rest of your process.

If you still have foaming problems with your developer or uneven development problems after that, then you'll need to extend the pre-wash.

Best,

Doremus

pentaxuser · Apr 22, 2025

Doremus Scudder said:
It seems you want to know how you should pre-soak, not how we do it. So might I be so bold:

Doremus

Hoorah, Doremus, this is the first attempt at answering what for pbromaghin seems to be his crucíal question

pentaxuser

ags2mikon · Apr 22, 2025

I also replenish and do not pre wash. The carry over water from the pre wash dilutes the developer over time. The surfactants and dyes haven't been a problem.

GregY · Apr 22, 2025

I essentially only use Pyrocat MD. I pre-soak @ 20°C for 3 minutes with all my sheet & roll films.

Sirius Glass · Apr 22, 2025

I presoak in the Jobo processor so yes the film in continuously agitated. Replenished XTOL.

Saganich · Apr 22, 2025

I also replenish and never pre-wash. I've used three films in past 5 years; TriX, Kentmere, and Double-X. Foaming was always an intermittent issue and has not reoccurred since switching to only Double-X last year. I always thought the foaming was related to wetting agents bound to the reels. I never was 100% on board with this idea since foaming was still an intermittent issue long after I eliminated wetting agents. The intermittent part was what got me and figured it was an issue with bottle washing. I never heard of surfactants in film before today, lol...this has given me a few "ah-ha" moments.

grahamp · Apr 22, 2025

I pre-wash for 5 minutes with the Jobo. It gives the tank and film time to reach equilibrium, and anything that is going to wash out should do it in that time. It is also enough time to ensure I have everything else ready to hand before the developer goes in.

BobUK · Apr 22, 2025

Partial quote..

pbromaghin said:
This isn't about whether or not - that dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp.

Thanks,
Peter

I don't understand that bit myself, so hopefully I am on the correct course.

At the end of dev, fix and wash, I transfer the loaded film spiral to a separate bowl of fresh water with a tiny amount of wetting agent. My wetting agent does not go anywhere near the tank. Then the emptied spiral is given a thorough good wash.

If you are adding wetting agent to the tank for the final rinse is, there a possibility that the tank is assumed to be clean after all the rinsing,and not being thoroughly washed clean of the wetting agent?
So you end up with the developer wetting agent, plus the residue wetting agent from the previous final rinse.

I have been very lucky and never had a frothy brew.

BradS · Apr 22, 2025

I don't pre-soak.

cliveh · Apr 22, 2025

You don't, as it is a waste of time and completely unnecessary.

How do YOU pre-soak?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency