How do you mix Platinum and Palladium Toner?

[Jim Moore]

I want to make sure that I get this correct before I mix this stuff up.

Citric acid 5g
Potassium chloroplatinite 20% solution 5ml
OR Sodium chloropalladite 20% solution 5ml
Water 1000ml



Would the mixture for the Potassium chloroplatinite be:
2 grams Platinum (II) Chloride - Formula PtC12 to 100ml water

And the mixture for Sodium chloropalladite be:
2 grams Palladium (II) Chloride - Formula PdC12 to 100ml water

This stuff is a little to expensive to screw this up

Thanks!!!

Jim

 

[Brook]

I mix a 1% solution of the metals and a 5% citric acid solution, and mix immediatly prior to use. In my case this means 5ml of the metal, 5ml of the citric, and 40ml distilled H2O for an 8x10 image on 11x14 paper in a 11x14 flat bottem tray. This is for toning kallitypes.

I was a bit afraid to mix the acid and metals togather in larger quantities for the same reason, too expensive to screw up.

 

[scootermm]

Jim heres how I do it... and it has worked quite well.
1000ml of distilled water (the tap water here in Austin seemed to have a negative impact on the effectiveness of the toning)
10grams of Citric acid.
then 10 DROPS (not ML) of platinum.
That would solidly tone a 7x17 Van Dyke Brown Print in about 15-20mins

then to make successive toned prints I would just add an additional 10 drops of pt to the mixture. The citric acid seemingly held its properties for usually 4 tonings of 7x17s.

When toning 4x5s, 5x7s, I could easily tone 2-3 of each in the above mixture.

when toning 8x10s I did the same thing but used 8 drops of pt for each. likely a bit much but it worked.

If I remember correctly, 10drops = 1ml roughly of solution.

Hopefully Sandy will find this and post because he was of extensive help to me in figuring out the above.

The above quantities seemed to work as well when toning in gold and palladium.
Very unique and differing results with each metal toning.

 

[Jim Moore]

Thanks for the response guys.

So would the 10 DROPS (not ML) of platinum be from the 20% (2 grams Platinum (II) Chloride - Formula PtC12 to 100ml water?) solution or from a different percentage?

Thanks again!

Jim

 

[scootermm]

from the 20% sol.

It works and seemed like a much more economical approach than making a stock bulk solution. Im all about economy for sure.

 

[Jim Moore]

from the 20% sol.

It works and seemed like a much more economical approach than making a stock bulk solution. Im all about economy for sure.

Sweet! Thanks Matt

 

[scootermm]

the really interesting thing I learn jim...
when I would tone one 7x17 with the 10 drops for 20mins. Then Id put another 7x17 VDB in toner bath. even after 20 mins. there seemed to be no discernable difference. SO I deduced, in my finite empirical science mind, that the pt had been completely replaced in the VDB. so it seemed a good economical and effective way to use just enough metal solution without wasting. hope that made sense.

 

[Jim Moore]

That makes perfect sense Matt.

Thanks again,

Jim

 

[Brook]

My ratios seem to exhaust the pt/pd as well. I use it one shot, saving the old toner in a jug. I have tried to tone waste prints for from the spent toner jug for experiment, and got little or no color change.

 

[donbga]

If I remember correctly, 10drops = 1ml roughly of solution.

Matt,

I like your approach of mixing minimal amounts of toner. It sounds like it produces repeatable results with a minimum of material.

However, the volume of 1 drop from a plastic dropper is usually considered to be
0.05 ml. This will vary some by the barometric pressure, ambient temperature, dropper shape, etc. so consider this to be the accepted average volume.

Don Bryant

 

[EricNeilsen]

I want to make sure that I get this correct before I mix this stuff up.

Citric acid 5g
Potassium chloroplatinite 20% solution 5ml
OR Sodium chloropalladite 20% solution 5ml
Water 1000ml



Would the mixture for the Potassium chloroplatinite be:
2 grams Platinum (II) Chloride - Formula PtC12 to 100ml water

And the mixture for Sodium chloropalladite be:
2 grams Palladium (II) Chloride - Formula PdC12 to 100ml water

This stuff is a little to expensive to screw this up

Thanks!!!

Jim

Jim, 2 g in a 100 is only 2% not 20%. Are you sure you have the chemical names correct. Potassium Tetracholorplatinite, and Sodium Tertracholorpalladite?

Where are you buying it?

Eric

 

[EricNeilsen]

the really interesting thing I learn jim...
when I would tone one 7x17 with the 10 drops for 20mins. Then Id put another 7x17 VDB in toner bath. even after 20 mins. there seemed to be no discernable difference. SO I deduced, in my finite empirical science mind, that the pt had been completely replaced in the VDB. so it seemed a good economical and effective way to use just enough metal solution without wasting. hope that made sense.

It may have been that all the pt was used, but it may have also been a pH issue. There is a pt intensifacation step for PT/PD printing where you use platinic acid and sodium formate. There need to be a precise range for that toner to work. If the pH os too high or low it is a no go. You may wish to try it again but prior to placing your print in the toner directly try a acid bath only, then put it in the toner. With all the buffering that goes into paper and the alkaline level of some water, that may be an issue for you.

Eric

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Resurrecting this thread because I'm unconfidently tippy-toeing toward mixing up my first batch of Palladium toner and seeking advice.

Received 2 grams of Sodium Tetrachloropalladate (II) Hydrate from Artcraft.

I like scootermm's method here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-do-you-mix-platinum-and-palladium-toner.16069/#post-223029
but will be using it for 5x7 Argyrotype test prints and will only need enough solution for two 5x7's per session. They are printed on 21gsm Japanese Gampi.

Following his logic, I'm planning on mixing the 2g of Pd into 10ml of distilled water for the 20% solution, kept in a brown eyedropper bottle.

1g of Citric Acid will go into 200ml of distilled water, to which I'll add 3 drops of the 20% solution and pour into a 6x8-ish flat bottomed glass tray.

This should be good for two 5x7 prints on the 21gsm Japanese Gampi paper?

His 10 drops in 1000ml was good for four 7x17 prints, presumably on heavy cotton paper. In terms of surface area, there are three 5x7's in each 7x17, so about twelve 5x7's for every 10 drops of 20% Pd solution.

Any of this making sense

 

[fgorga]

Murray,

I can't comment on the specifics because I have no experience with argyrotype. However, the general approach you outline is good.

I always keep my precious metal solutions as 10% to 20% (w/v) stocks in distilled water and dilute appropriately as needed. This allows for the most flexibility in their use for different processes.

The stock solutions are stored in brown glass bottles and also protected from contamination with other materials (i.e. use clean and/or dedicated droppers/pipettes to dispense). The stocks are very stable when used this way.

A few other comments...

Regarding drop counting, this is a perfectly acceptable practice working in your own space with your own droppers/pipettes but it can be difficult to translate exactly from another persons practice. The reason for this is simple: drop size is very dependent on the exact dropper and on the operator. Thus, use another person's drop counts only as a guide to get started not as an absolute.

In my experience (mainly with salted paper) the capacity of a precious metal toner is only loosely related to the area of a print because the amount of metal in the print is also a factor. That is, an image with lots of shadows will use up the toning metal much faster than an image that is mostly highlights. Because of this, I use the replenishment approach where I add an additional amount of precious metal to my toning tray when I see that the toning action is slowing down unacceptably.

I am unsure about how the weight of the paper will affect capacity of a toner solution other than the obvious... that a thin paper will generally soak up less solution than a think one.

As with so many things in alt process printing, one needs to adapt what one reads to fit your own practice. In order to do this efficiently, one needs to work methodically and reproducibly. Keeping good notes also helps!

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Murray,

I can't comment on the specifics because I have no experience with argyrotype. However, the general approach you outline is good.

I always keep my precious metal solutions as 10% to 20% (w/v) stocks in distilled water and dilute appropriately as needed. This allows for the most flexibility in their use for different processes.

The stock solutions are stored in brown glass bottles and also protected from contamination with other materials (i.e. use clean and/or dedicated droppers/pipettes to dispense). The stocks are very stable when used this way.

A few other comments...

Regarding drop counting, this is a perfectly acceptable practice working in your own space with your own droppers/pipettes but it can be difficult to translate exactly from another persons practice. The reason for this is simple: drop size is very dependent on the exact dropper and on the operator. Thus, use another person's drop counts only as a guide to get started not as an absolute.

In my experience (mainly with salted paper) the capacity of a precious metal toner is only loosely related to the area of a print because the amount of metal in the print is also a factor. That is, an image with lots of shadows will use up the toning metal much faster than an image that is mostly highlights. Because of this, I use the replenishment approach where I add an additional amount of precious metal to my toning tray when I see that the toning action is slowing down unacceptably.

I am unsure about how the weight of the paper will affect capacity of a toner solution other than the obvious... that a thin paper will generally soak up less solution than a think one.

As with so many things in alt process printing, one needs to adapt what one reads to fit your own practice. In order to do this efficiently, one needs to work methodically and reproducibly. Keeping good notes also helps!

Thanks...much appreciated!

You've given me exactly what I was looking for, and more

 

[FotoD]

I haven't used palladium. But with platinum 3 drops of a 20% potassium tetrachloroplatinate sol is plenty to tone a print from a 13x18 (cm) negative. 1 drop is not enough to tone to completion. 12 prints from 10 drops sounds optimistic to me.

For one 13x18 print (one-shot):
30ml dH2O
8gt 40% H3Cit
3gt 20% K2PtCl4

 

[MurrayMinchin]

I haven't used palladium. But with platinum 3 drops of a 20% potassium tetrachloroplatinate sol is plenty to tone a print from a 13x18 (cm) negative. 1 drop is not enough to tone to completion. 12 prints from 10 drops sounds optimistic to me.

For one 13x18 print (one-shot):
30ml dH2O
8gt 40% H3Cit
3gt 20% K2PtCl4

Thanks a bunch.

I'll try 3 drops and see how far it goes, as well as how dark & high key prints change things. Haven't toned alt prints in palladium or platinum before, so want to get it right.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Just mixed up the palladium and it was waaaaay easier than expected. There were rather large, very hard chunky bits which made me think I'd be stirring for a long time.

Put a shot glass and distilled water in a warm water bath, let it get snuggly warm, added the palladium, and it pretty much dissolved without any stirring.

Will try it out tomorrow.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Hmmmmm...

Does an image that's over-toned in a palladium toner get richer in 'warmth' or does it go neutral in colour?

I couldn't find anything Mike Ware had written in his Argyrotype articles about toning, other than to recommend using a more dilute toning bath than you would for kallitypes. I used Sandy King's formula (and dilution) for Kallitypes and toned the Argyrotype below for 10 minutes.

The first is the raw Argyrotype, the second is the palladium toned Argyrotype which is what I'd called neutral in tone, and there was a loss in density overall. Weird. Both received identical coating and processing (other than the second one being toned) except the toned one dried after coating for twice as long (an hour) beccause someone dropped in for a visit.

The dry palladium ( Sodium Tetrachloropalladate II Hydrate) was brown in colour.

Thoughts?

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Further musings...

The toned print is 'crisper' in fine details than the untoned print, so the surface of each grain had been changed. Could this have made it more susceptible to over fixing?

One Mike Ware Argyrotype article said to use 25g Sodium Thiosulfate per litre (which is what I've been using) and one of his original articles said to use 20g per litre.

My time was the recommended 2 minutes. That may be too long for 21gsm Gampi?

I'll be using 20g per litre today, and may shorten the time if the repeat of yesterdays toned print has the same loss of density.

Never a dull moment! (see signature below)

 

[MurrayMinchin]

YAY!!!

The Palladium has landed

The top print is yesterdays and todays print is below. They are on white paper this time instead of the Rising Museum board I used yesterday. (One of these days I'll have to get consistent on the print to website colour reproduction thing).

Reduced the Pd drops to two drops in 200ml distilled water with 1 gram citric acid. Gave it a 5 minute toning...so half the time with 1/3 less 20% Pd solution. Also reduced sodium thiosulfate to 20g in 1 litre, kept the same time, and reduced agitation by about a half.

All conspired to give the yummy palladium feel I've been envisioning, and the rich shadows & mid-tones are back. Me happy.