How do YOU "Expose for the Shadows" (without a spot meter)

runswithsizzers · Oct 9, 2022

We have all often heard the advice to "expose for the shadows" when shooting negative film. But I expect there may be some variation in the exact methods we use. Please include the following: Do you use box ISO or do you set your meter to some other EI? What kind of meter do you use? Where exactly do you aim the meter? After you take your meter reading, how do you set the camera?

My usual metering method is to take an incident reading following the instructions provided by Gossen or Sekonic - so I don't have much experience with metering for the shadows.
But if I wanted to meter for the shadows, I would do it something like this:

1. I usually set my meter to some EI slightly less than box speed: for most ISO 400 film from Kodak or Ilford, I would set my meter to EI 320 or 250. I usually develop in XTOL, which is said to be speed preserving.

2. I would choose something in my scene which I think should be in Zone 3 - say a shaded tree trunk that has some bark texture I want to preserve.

3. Using either my camera's built in meter (simple center weighted TTL), or one of my hand-held meters, I would take a reflected reading from the shaded tree trunk.

4. I would reduce the meter reading by two stops, and set the camera to that value.

I shoot 35mm film, so I don't mess with any kind of notes about contrast range or plus/minus developing - the whole roll unavoidably gets the same development.

It is Step 3 that I am particularly wondering about. I have heard some photographers would either take an incident reading in the shade - or take a reflected reading from a gray card in the same light (shade) as the zone 3 shadow. Pros and Cons?

Vaughn · Oct 9, 2022

Using box speed and a Gossen Luna Pro meter to get a relfective reading, I stick the meter into a shadow area I want detail in. The reading I get wants to make it middle gray, so I drop the exposure two stops and make my exposure at that. And since it is roll film, fire off another with a stop more light.

I then develop the film, make prints, and then see how I did. Then make any adjustments to the process needed to get me relatively easy negs to make the prints that I want.

Sheet film is a different variation of the same story, but with a spot meter and more note-taking.

PS...I know film is not cheap but what is a bigger 'waste'? A half roll of film not exposed but developed for the light it was used under -- or half the roll being poorly developed because of two very different lighting conditions used during the roll? (or compromise and develop less than optimum for both light conditions?) If someone makes a few images that they know are extremely important and then the light drastically changes, they are better off winding the film up and putting in a new roll.

First sentence edited for clarity.

Sirius Glass · Oct 9, 2022

Use box speed and estimate the number of stops that you need to open up the iris or lengthen the exposure. A choice of 1, 2, or 3.

Steven Lee · Oct 9, 2022

Vaughn said:
Using box speed and a Gossen Luna Pro meter, I stick the meter into a shadow area I want detail in, figure the reading I get wants to make it middle gray, drop the exposure two stops and make my exposure at that.

If I'm reading this right: you take an incident in the shadow and then add +2EV more? Isn't this massively excessive? An incident reading in the shadow by definition (18% grey target) will give you full detail there.

I usually do -1EV from the incident shadow reading. It works well. In the photo below I wanted full detail on the shaded coconuts:

Am I missing something?

John Koehrer · Oct 9, 2022

See Vaughn's post. light and shadow don't change much over a given area. kodak photoguide. or professional
handbook are pocketable.
Generally though Open shade, NO sun would be about 2 stops but the calibrated eyeball comes with practice. Steven's example of 1 stop makes perfect sense because it is good example with both sun AND shadow.

Vaughn · Oct 9, 2022

Steven Lee said:
If I'm reading this right: you take an incident in the shadow and then add +2EV more? Isn't this massively excessive? An incident reading in the shadow by definition (18% grey target) will give you full detail there.

Am I missing something?

Sorry -- reflective light reading in the shadow area. I have not worked much with incident light readings.

The reflective reading into the darkest area I want to keep detail in gives me a reading to make that area middle gray. Since I want it to be a shadow with detail (for me, Zone III), I reduce the exposure two stops from the meter reading. But I only did this until I could afford a spot meter...which I use pretty much the same way.

This is more the light I work in...

Ariston · Oct 9, 2022

I agree with Steven. When AA said, "expose for the shadows," I don't think he meant to put them in Zone 5. He was saying that, for negative film, give preference to your shadows (put them in the right zone), then develop less to control the highlights, if necessary.

Paul Howell · Oct 9, 2022

You do not expose for the shadows, with normal use, with an incident meter, you meter the scene with the large dome pointed towards the camera, the meter will meter for shadows and highlights with texture. When using a reflective meter walk into shadow or at least the meter, then stop down 2 stops for zone 3 shadows, other wise you turning your shadows into average or zone V brightness. At this point you have needed to find your E.I and development time for Zone VII or highlights with texture. Ansel Adams started the zone system with a wide angle Weston meter but as soon he could obtain moved on to a spot meter. Phil Davis Beyond the Zone System does use a incident meter, he holds the meter in the shadows then in bight sun to calculate the scene brightness range which is used to calculate the exposure using his majic wheel or software that is downloaded to a smart phone. The Zone and Beyond the Zone both require extensive film testing, BTZ also tests paper speeds determine what grade paper to use.

In most situations a good hand held reflective with provide good exposure for what I call a record shot. Problems arise when shooting backlight subjects, subjects where very dark or very light elements that fool the meter.

awty · Oct 9, 2022

You can print shadows with 1 or 2 stops of under exposure before it gets tricky and about 4 or 5 stops of overexposure in the highlights before it gets tricky. So you need to meter the shadows and the highlights and find the happy medium.

Zathras · Oct 9, 2022

Paul Howell said:
You do not expose for the shadows, with normal use, with an incident meter, you meter the scene with the large dome pointed towards the camera, the meter will meter for shadows and highlights with texture. When using a reflective meter walk into shadow or at least the meter, then stop down 2 stops for zone 3 shadows, other wise you turning your shadows into average or zone V brightness. At this point you have needed to find your E.I and development time for Zone VII or highlights with texture. Ansel Adams started the zone system with a wide angle Weston meter but as soon he could obtain moved on to a spot meter. Phil Davis Beyond the Zone System does use a incident meter, he holds the meter in the shadows then in bight sun to calculate the scene brightness range which is used to calculate the exposure using his majic wheel or software that is downloaded to a smart phone. The Zone and Beyond the Zone both require extensive film testing, BTZ also tests paper speeds determine what grade paper to use.

In most situations a good hand held reflective with provide good exposure for what I call a record shot. Problems arise when shooting backlight subjects, subjects where very dark or very light elements that fool the meter.

Phil Davis also recommended a "quick and dirty" method of using the incident meter set to 1/2 box speed for readings taken in the same light as the subject highlights, or, setting the meter to 2x box speed for readings taken in open shade. This was not how he used the meter in his BTZS system, however. It was most likely intended when developing film for the manufacturer's recommended time.

ic-racer · Oct 9, 2022

But if I wanted to meter for the shadows, I would do it something like this:

Those all seem fine. For years I perfected those until I got a spotmeter only to find sometimes the spotmeter is harder to use.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 9, 2022

runswithsizzers said:
We have all often heard the advice to "expose for the shadows" when shooting negative film. But I expect there may be some variation in the exact methods we use. Please include the following: Do you use box ISO or do you set your meter to some other EI? What kind of meter do you use? Where exactly do you aim the meter? After you take your meter reading, how do you set the camera?

My usual metering method is to take an incident reading following the instructions provided by Gossen or Sekonic - so I don't have much experience with metering for the shadows.
But if I wanted to meter for the shadows, I would do it something like this:

1. I usually set my meter to some EI slightly less than box speed: for most ISO 400 film from Kodak or Ilford, I would set my meter to EI 320 or 250. I usually develop in XTOL, which is said to be speed preserving.

2. I would choose something in my scene which I think should be in Zone 3 - say a shaded tree trunk that has some bark texture I want to preserve.

3. Using either my camera's built in meter (simple center weighted TTL), or one of my hand-held meters, I would take a reflected reading from the shaded tree trunk.

4. I would reduce the meter reading by two stops, and set the camera to that value.

I shoot 35mm film, so I don't mess with any kind of notes about contrast range or plus/minus developing - the whole roll unavoidably gets the same development.

It is Step 3 that I am particularly wondering about. I have heard some photographers would either take an incident reading in the shade - or take a reflected reading from a gray card in the same light (shade) as the zone 3 shadow. Pros and Cons?

te key is to err on the side of overexposure by subtracting 2/3 of a stop from the box speed.

Paul Howell · Oct 9, 2022

When shooting 35mm film with a mid level or pro level AF body with a longish zoom, like a 35mm to 100, I use the spot meter, set the exposure compensation function to -2, meter open shadows at the long end of the zoom, use the AEL to hold the exposure then compose and shoot. I develop for Zone VII.

gone · Oct 9, 2022

I don't. If I have a spot meter, I use the reading right off my main subject, that's all I care about. If I have a center weighted meter, I may look around for a spot near me that has a middle value.

I suspect that after a while we become acquainted w/ how a particular film will perform, and we just naturally expose things to get get that look w/ a certain developer. It all has to fit into place like a puzzle, just metering for shadows alone on all sorts of shots is a bad idea. Every scene is different.

A camera that has an in camera spot meter, motorized film advance, AE and AE-Lock will simplify things enormously and give consistent results.

albada · Oct 9, 2022

momus said:
I suspect that after a while we become acquainted w/ how a particular film will perform, and we just naturally expose things to get get that look w/ a certain developer. It all has to fit into place like a puzzle, just metering for shadows alone on all sorts of shots is a bad idea. Every scene is different.

Every scene is different, and in some scenes, the contents of shadows are important. The coconut palm posted by @Steven Lee above is a good example. A zonie would say, "I'll place this coconut on zone 3".

Derek Lofgreen · Oct 9, 2022

I have always heard "expose for the shadows, print for the highlights". It's always worked for me when I do it. I usually shoot in manual and just point the lens at the darkest subject in the scene, set my exposure with TTL meter and shoot away. Doesn't matter what I set my ISO/ASA at. If it's neg film I usually over expose 1 stop my setting my ISO/ASA to one stop less from box speed depending on the film. i.e 400 film at 200 on my camera. Pretty simple really.

runswithsizzers · Oct 10, 2022

Derek Lofgreen said:
I have always heard "expose for the shadows, print for the highlights". It's always worked for me when I do it. I usually shoot in manual and just point the lens at the darkest subject in the scene, set my exposure with TTL meter and shoot away. Doesn't matter what I set my ISO/ASA at. If it's neg film I usually over expose 1 stop my setting my ISO/ASA to one stop less from box speed depending on the film. i.e 400 film at 200 on my camera. Pretty simple really.

Interesting. Do you know if your camera's TTL meter takes an average of the whole scene, or is center weighted, or more of a spot?

NB23 · Oct 10, 2022

Haven’t read the answers, because basically, frankly, it boils down to over-exposing by one stop.

Derek Lofgreen · Oct 10, 2022

Center weighted and spot work just as well for me.

runswithsizzers · Oct 10, 2022

When I started this thread I thought the phrase "expose for the shadows" probably meant taking some kind of meter reading from some kind of shadow area and using that reading to calculate how the camera should be set. Much as described by Vaughn in posts #2 and #4.

But before asking for details about how various members expose for the shadows in actual practice, I guess I should have started out with bigger question(s) like:

1. Is exposing for the shadows a valid/useful approach when metering all scenes - or only some scenes?

2. Is there any advantage in trying to "expose for the shadows" when using roll film with no intention of following through with N+/N- development?

3. Does "expose for the shadows" simply (and vaguely) mean "don't underexpose the shadows" using whatever method, and does not specifically suggest that any shadow areas should actually be metered?

Alan Edward Klein · Oct 10, 2022

I use center weight for average then overexpose half stop for BW film and underexpose 1/2 stop for chromes. I don't have a darkroom and develop in a lab.

BrianShaw · Oct 10, 2022

runswithsizzers said:
3. Does "expose for the shadows" simply (and vaguely) mean "don't underexpose the shadows" using whatever method, and does not specifically suggest that any shadow areas should actually be metered?

IMHO… yes. How you preserve the shadow detail in the neg can be done by many different metering/estimation regimes.

cramej · Oct 10, 2022

I can only comment on what I've been doing recently, and it's not scientific in the least. One example - I was out this past weekend with a cloudless sky and early afternoon sun photographing buildings. I metered an area in direct sun that would be close to a middle value (whatever you want to call it zone or otherwise) and metered an area in shadow that would be similar. Even with the subject a distance from my position, direct sun is the same in either place and so should shadows so I can take a reflective meter reading from almost anywhere. I found there was only 2 stops between them so I chose an exposure 1 stop less than the shadow value. Any highlights in the scene should be well within the capability of the film so I didn't worry about them. N+/- development doesn't concern me so I develop as I would normally and I end up with easily printable negatives. I don't find that it makes that much of a difference from using a camera with a built-in meter unless the scene would easily fool a meter like backlighting, very bright or dark subject or extreme contrast.

MattKing · Oct 10, 2022

Reading through this thread make me realize that there is a couple of different ways I think about using a meter.
One of those ways, and I think the way that the OP was asking about, is the way where we point the meter (or camera) at something, and then make use of the results to set the camera. That is the most common approach, and usually works fine. That approach leads to the questions about where to point the meter/camera and how to interpret the results. Those are good questions.
The other way is a bit more complex. You can use the meter to learn about your subject, and help you visualize how it might be rendered in a photographic print or projected slide or .... Also, you can use that information to consciously decide what result you would like, and how to achieve it. Decisions like high key, full range of tones, or low key results. Empty shadows or brilliant highlights.
So you take a shadow reading, and take a mid-tone reading, and take a highlight reading, and it tells you a lot about how those parts are likely to relate to each other in the negative (or transparency). If the subject has a high Subject Luminance Range ("SLR"), you may decide to make an exposure decision that favours shadows or mid-tones or highlights, accepting the fact that tones at one or both ends of the range may be deleteriously affected. Exposing for the shadows may be a way of referring to such a "shadow favouring" decision.
Those investigations may also lead to efforts to modify the SLR - things like using reflectors, fill-flash, in some cases filters and the old reliable choice of leaving and coming back when the light is better.

BrianShaw · Oct 10, 2022

MattKing said:
So you take a shadow reading, and take a mid-tone reading, and take a highlight reading, and it tells you a lot about how those parts are likely to relate to each other in the negative (or transparency).

Scene analysis… one if the most useful learning tools for a photographer. My spotmeter is used more for this while just sitting around than figuring out metering for an exposure. Once one can measure or estimate a scene’s luminance range AND understands the basic exposure range of their film… the less one can worry about details that might, in effect, impede photography.

How do YOU "Expose for the Shadows" (without a spot meter)

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How do YOU "Expose for the Shadows" (without a spot meter)

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