How do I shop for a vintage barrel lens on eBay?

[ame01999]

I have this quixotic idea of shooting with a late 19th or early 20th century lens. I don't have any expert to converse with in person, and I'm not very knowledgeable myself about these workings, but so far my Googling has taught me this much:

1. Barrel lenses do not have shutters. Unless you want to shoot slow speeds with a hat in front of the lens, get the lens remounted with a compatible standard shutter or a "Packard" shutter (which sits in front of the lens, I guess?)
2. Some antique lenses have apertures inside, but the Petzvals and some others accept external apertures.
3. A flange and retaining ring are required. S.K. Grimes can manufacture them for a good price.

Am I right so far?

1. When shopping for a lens, is there anything I should look for in the description or printed on the front of the lens that can give me a good hint about how difficult/costly it would be to remount with a shutter, and/or what size shutter might be compatible? Or do I just have to wait until it's in my hands to attempt to measure the maximum aperture myself?

Googling turned up this:

First, measure your lens's maximum aperture opening, as this is the most critical factor:

• If the maximum aperture is around 24mm, consider Copal #0
• If the maximum aperture is around 30mm, look at Copal #1
• If the maximum aperture requires around 45mm, you'll need Copal #3

2. I emailed S.K. Grimes, who were very nice, but their email was a bit vague on whether a standard Copal shutter might fit any given antique barrel lens. I'm awaiting hearing back, but in the meantime, are there any substantial drawbacks to a Packard shutter? If they were invented to solve the very problem I'm facing with barrel lenses, it seems like they might be just right?

3. If I buy a barrel lens requiring external apertures that slide in the little notch, are such apertures in "standard" sizes? How would I judge which sets on eBay actually fit? If worst comes to worse, and I get a great deal on some barrel lens that is a strange size, can such aperture slides be manufactured or, I dunno, laser cut?

4. A lot of barrel lens look to be around 300mm. I like that angle of view a lot for 4x5", but I thought I first might attempt this quixotic project with a view camera configured for 6x9 cm, which would make something between 100mm-150mm more suitable. Do you suppose there are late 19th century or early 20th century 120-150mm lenses out there on the market? But are the vintage barrel lenses with antique rendering all designed for 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, and thus unlikely to be less than 150mm? I suppose 150mm exactly would be a good length for 6x9cm, but the barrel lenses seem to be often portrait lenses, and 150mm is merely normal for 4x5.

Thank you so much for your expertise. I'm very early in this project, and it's already stressing me out.

 

[BrianShaw]

There may be another option that has not been considered: shuttered lenses from early Kodak (or other, perhaps) folding cameras. The one I used was from a 19-teens era Kodak 3-A 122 roll film camera. The shutter was easy to overhaul and that worked great on both 120 and 4x5 Polaroid film (way back when that was available). The aperture system may be in US stop versus F/stop but that's not a problem. The shutter may not offer much variation; the shutter on mine offered on I (instantaneous) speed of about 1/50 sec. So there will be constraints, especially with today's faster speed film.

Retrofitting antique lens cells into a modern shutter might be asking a bit too much unless money is no object.

You are clear about what you want to do and the answers to your questions are fairly basic so there won't be any problems in the long run. No need for stress, really. But what is the photographic objective: what look are you trying to achieve, for instance? This is very important to address!

I was very surprised at how good old lenses work with modern film, especially when a lens hood/shade was used.

 

[MARTIE]

Many, myself included, use the sinar shutter.

 

[Ian Grant]

I shoot with older brass lenses, including a Dallmeyer 2B Quick Acting Portrait Petzval, an f3 8" Lens. I have longer 17" TTH & un-named 202 both f8 Rapid Rectilinear lenses.

An early 12" Dagor in a shutter is one possiblity, mine is 1940 and in a Compound #3.

I have many brass lenses and use various shutters, I have two Packards which I haven't used. Most useful is Gitzo leaf shutter front mounting with flash sync that fits the 2B and a the 17" & 20" RR lenses. and a 12" f6.3 Wray Lustrar (post WWII).

Mostly I use Thornton Pickard roller blind shutters, I have many of various sizes, including one that fits the 2B and larger RR lenses. For flash sync with smaller lenses I have a Compound #3 which I front mount. Alternatively, I use a pair of Speed Graphics, one pre-Anniversary, the other a Pacemaker. Waiting restoration is a dual shutter Thornton Pickard Triple Imperial, this has a high speed focal plane shutter, as well as a between lens shutter (in the lens board).

Early this year I bought a Sinar shutter for £20 (approx $14) and need to get around to fitting it to my 10x8 Agfa Ansco. I have other type Norka, Eyelid, etc, I plan to make some videos.

I forgot to add with patience you can find really nice brass lenses at very reasonable prices, even on eBay. That's where a bit of knowledge helps.

Ian

 

[Dustin McAmera]

A lot of people start into large format with a Speed Graphic, exactly because it has a focal-plane shutter in the camera body, so lets you use lenses without a shutter. You still have to mount those lenses onto a lens-board, so try to buy them with retaining rings.

For less than two hundred UK pounds I bought a 1930s large-format SLR (Ensign Reflex; a Mentor reflex, or Soho Reflex would be alternatives). It has a cloth focal-plane shutter: it's made of old cloth so it could develop holes at any moment, but it hasn't done yet. Using a big SLR is a different (and faster) way of working than 'proper' large format. I usually have my camera on a neck-strap for a start.
I got a good deal on my camera because it's quarter-plate; a difficult size these days. They come in 4x5 as well, but you'll probably pay more for that.
The lenses on these come with common screw-threads for mounting into a fixed lens-board. So I haven't had to spend money on flanges or retaining rings. On the other hand, sheet film holders are hard to get (there are several different fittings for different makers). I have got a roll-film back for it though.
Being an SLR means the body has to be a certain depth front-to-back to contain the mirror, so you can't use wide-angle lenses.

 

[nosmok]

A lot of people start into large format with a Speed Graphic, exactly because it has a focal-plane shutter in the camera body, so lets you use lenses without a shutter. You still have to mount those lenses onto a lens-board, so try to buy them with retaining rings.

Missing retaining rings aren't really a problem. My DIY solution is to make my own lens boards by gluing thin plywood layers with the grain at 90 degrees to each other (---, then | ). Then you drill a big hole, hone it to close to the lens thread diameter, and screw the lens barrel directly into the wood. Works like a charm. Here's my biggest use of this technique: a 19" lens for my Korona 11" x 14", threaded into 3/16" ply, with a Packard shutter on the back side of the board:

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have this quixotic idea of shooting with a late 19th or early 20th century lens. I don't have any expert to converse with in person, and I'm not very knowledgeable myself about these workings, but so far my Googling has taught me this much:

1. Barrel lenses do not have shutters. Unless you want to shoot slow speeds with a hat in front of the lens, get the lens remounted with a compatible standard shutter or a "Packard" shutter (which sits in front of the lens, I guess?)
2. Some antique lenses have apertures inside, but the Petzvals and some others accept external apertures.
3. A flange and retaining ring are required. S.K. Grimes can manufacture them for a good price.

Am I right so far?

1. When shopping for a lens, is there anything I should look for in the description or printed on the front of the lens that can give me a good hint about how difficult/costly it would be to remount with a shutter, and/or what size shutter might be compatible? Or do I just have to wait until it's in my hands to attempt to measure the maximum aperture myself?

Googling turned up this:

First, measure your lens's maximum aperture opening, as this is the most critical factor:

• If the maximum aperture is around 24mm, consider Copal #0
• If the maximum aperture is around 30mm, look at Copal #1
• If the maximum aperture requires around 45mm, you'll need Copal #3

2. I emailed S.K. Grimes, who were very nice, but their email was a bit vague on whether a standard Copal shutter might fit any given antique barrel lens. I'm awaiting hearing back, but in the meantime, are there any substantial drawbacks to a Packard shutter? If they were invented to solve the very problem I'm facing with barrel lenses, it seems like they might be just right?

3. If I buy a barrel lens requiring external apertures that slide in the little notch, are such apertures in "standard" sizes? How would I judge which sets on eBay actually fit? If worst comes to worse, and I get a great deal on some barrel lens that is a strange size, can such aperture slides be manufactured or, I dunno, laser cut?

4. A lot of barrel lens look to be around 300mm. I like that angle of view a lot for 4x5", but I thought I first might attempt this quixotic project with a view camera configured for 6x9 cm, which would make something between 100mm-150mm more suitable. Do you suppose there are late 19th century or early 20th century 120-150mm lenses out there on the market? But are the vintage barrel lenses with antique rendering all designed for 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, and thus unlikely to be less than 150mm? I suppose 150mm exactly would be a good length for 6x9cm, but the barrel lenses seem to be often portrait lenses, and 150mm is merely normal for 4x5.

Thank you so much for your expertise. I'm very early in this project, and it's already stressing me out.

Consider posting this on Large Format Photography www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

 

[koraks]

Consider posting this on Large Format Photography www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

There's a considerable overlap in membership between the Large Format forum and Photrio, although the active membership of the latter is bigger.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The Rapid Rectilinear (RR) was sold in shutters on a number of 4x5 and 122 (postcard size) folding cameras; these would usually have lenses from 110 to 135 mm focal length, though a 4x5 might run up to 150 mm even in a folder. A similar lens in terms of rendering is a Periskop; where the RR has a pair of achromat meniscus lenses, concave toward each other, with the aperture between, a Periskop has simple meniscus instead of the achromats. They were therefore significantly less costly (and they did good enough work they were still sold on entry level 120 folders into the mid-1950s; a Speedex Junior has this lens and can do very good work for such a simple camera).

If you're ambitious, you could build a Periskop type of 250 mm focal length by buying a pair of +2 diopter spherical monocle lenses from an optician. Eyeglass lenses like these have enough curvature to work and two, back to back, with correct spacing and aperture between, will be significantly better than one. For a 125 mm focal length, you'd get +4 lenses instead (and space them closer together) and +3 lenses would give ~165 mm. A slot for a Waterhouse stop halfway between the lenses gives a good, cheap way to control aperture, and the barrel could be a length of sink drain tailpipe.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Ser. IIb f/6.3 Tessars were sold in a number of Folding Pocket Kodaks, all in shutter. I've had a bunch of them. Fine lenses, Zeiss Kodak Anastigmats are probably better than B&Ls. The shutters were usually Compound or various Kodaks. Focal lengths varied depending on the FPK's format. The range is a little over 4" (FPK #1) to 8.25" (#4A).

In my experience, old Kodak shutters, in particular their Ball Bearing Shutter, can be troublesome. A lens in a busted shutter is effectively a barrel lens.

None of the shutters I've mentioned is compatible (threading, tube length) with modern shutters.

If you want TTH Cooke triplets, well, they were also sold on FPKs, in the same lenses as the Tessars I've mentioned.

The better lenses are in Autographic FPKs and in FPK Specials. Other lenses commonly offered in FPKs were mainly Rapid Rectilinears.

For more info on FPKs, see http://mgroleau.com/catalogues_kodak/.

These lenses were also used on some Premo cameras. The Premo #12 shot 2.25" x 3.25" (6x9 is a poor metric approximation), had 85/6.3 Tessars. I have one each Carl Zeiss Jena and B&L, the B&L is relatively a dog. The CZJ shot well on a 2x3 Graphic.

Oh, and by the way, f/6.3 Tessars, coated or not, are quite competitive with modern plasmat types EXCEPT in coverage. If you want "vintage rendering," whatever that means, these lenses are not for you.

I have no experience with them, but if I recall correctly some #1 FPKs had 4"or slightly shorter f/4.5 Tessars. I prefer the f/6.3s.

Hmm. As long as I'm rambling, here's a little more. If you want w/a lenses for 2x3, consider 60/14 or 75/14 Berthiot Perigraphe VIa. They're in barrel, can be stuffed into the front of an Ilex #3, but to avoid vignetting the shutter's rear tube will have to be truncated and mounting the shutter on a board will take imagination. SKGrimes did the work for me. These lenses are uncommon and costly, so is the machining. Not Tessars, but fine lenses much underrated. Better, and easier to use, IMO, than f/18 Ser. V Protars.

 

[jimgalli]

Lots of advice so far. Consider that an old Speed Graphic, the Anniversary model, has a built in curtain shutter capable of up to 1/1000 second all the way down to 1/10th I believe. A good one will cost less than having one lens installed into a Copal shutter. The Anniversary Speed Graphic used a 4X4 inch wooden lens board that almost anyone can make in the garage or back yard. Once you're up to speed on how the old Speedy works you can buy any barrel lens that you can cobble onto a 4X4 inch board and go have fun seeing what all the different possibilities are. I've included some images I made with just such an outfit and the lens is even simpler than most of the barrel lenses. I took the front glass off of some old opera glasses, mounted it onto a 4X4 home made lens board and made the images, no aperture no nothing. The lens is an achromatic doublet and this particular one measured just about perfect for 4X5 at 203mm and the aperture wide open was f5.5. Last image was similar but the lens measured at 190mm.

 

[lobitar]

Lots of advice so far. Consider that an old Speed Graphic, the Anniversary model, has a built in curtain shutter capable of up to 1/1000 second all the way down to 1/10th I believe. A good one will cost less than having one lens installed into a Copal shutter. The Anniversary Speed Graphic used a 4X4 inch wooden lens board that almost anyone can make in the garage or back yard. Once you're up to speed on how the old Speedy works you can buy any barrel lens that you can cobble onto a 4X4 inch board and go have fun seeing what all the different possibilities are. I've included some images I made with just such an outfit and the lens is even simpler than most of the barrel lenses. I took the front glass off of some old opera glasses, mounted it onto a 4X4 home made lens board and made the images, no aperture no nothing. The lens is an achromatic doublet and this particular one measured just about perfect for 4X5 at 203mm and the aperture wide open was f5.5. Last image was similar but the lens measured at 190mm.

Great results!

 

[Donald Qualls]

1/1000 second all the way down to 1/10th I believe.

I don't have my Annie here to verify, but I'm pretty certain the slowest speed is 1/8. If you need slower than that, there's a setting marked T that will open and stay open until you press the release again; you should be able to manage anything slower than about 1/4 with that. And the focal plane shutter's release accepts a standard cable release if you're a tripod guy (you should be at those speeds, though I've hand held my Annie at 1/20 with good results).

 

[MTGseattle]

Do you already have a large format camera? If so, which format?

That will help everyone narrow down some of the other constraints.

I recently mounted a barrel lens (a more modern one) into a board and have a Packard shutter behind it. The only drawback of sorts with Packard shutters is your speed. The #6 Packard allows "instantaneous" operation; There is a pin that automatically closes the shutter rather than waiting for the operator to let the air bulb refill. It is said that the approximate speed of the #6 is 1/25 of a second. Therefore, one is limited to 1/25 and "B" or Bulb settings essentially. The Packard shutter company has decent videos that cover all of the pertinent information.

The insert style aperture plates you mention are waterhouse stops. Some lenses have a built-in aperture and the slot for waterhouse stops.

As others have mentioned, having a Graflex 4x5 with a working focal plane shutter is a relatively inexpensive way to experiment with barrel lenses. As you may have already seen, some of the "famous" names with large coverage command high prices, but if you're only needing 4x5 coverage you should be able to find quite a few cheaper options to try out.

 

[ame01999]

Thank you everyone for your advice, here and in other threads. I know more now than I did at the beginning of this process, and it would have been perhaps a bit cheaper and easier if I'd had that knowledge from the beginning, but hey! That's always how these things work.

I now am the proud owner of a 152mm Petzval, and a rather gigantic Petzval that the photographer selling it says offers a 220mm equivalent in about a 150mm nominal focus length. Hopefully, it will fit in the Compound #5 I ordered due after a user's extraordinary helpful tip about Igor's Camera Exchange.

The small lens has no apertures (yet); both of them, thankfully, came with flanges.

 

[ame01999]

I forgot the photo:

 

[Romanko]

Have you considered using dry plates? They are slow (~2-5 ISO) and you don't need a shutter to use them, a lens cap is perfectly adequate. Another option is to use slow film (~50 ISO or lower) with an ND filter to extend your exposures to several seconds. Ortho- or unsensitized (blue-sensitive) film will give you a more authentic look for the time period you are interested in.
Depending on where you are sourcing an old brass-and-mahogany plate camera might be a cheaper option than professionally fitting a modern shutter to a 150-year-old lens.

 

[maruti660]

Just ask him, he makes amazing wet plates with those lenses every day!
His name is Maximilian Zeitler lives in Berlin. He is an artist, not a collector. You will be amazed by his vast knowledge and the quality of his work! I won't mention his Instagram or website address, so if you're interested, please check it out.