How do I meter the flash on my Lubitel 166B?

brainmonster · Oct 11, 2019

I have a Lubitel 166B which I plan to use with a pc sync cable on my Minolta 5600 HS(D) flash unit (via an adapter which lets me use a PC sync cable).

Fortunately, it’s a leaf shutter so can sync at any speed. However, on my Minolta flash I cannot set the ISO, aperture, etc., so I don’t know how to meter it. I am only able to set the power level (down to 1/32) and the focal length (So in this case I would set 70 or 85mm since the Lubitel is 75mm 4.5).

How do I know what I need to set my shutter speed and aperture to? Should I test fire the flash in strobe mode, meter it with my phone, then set it?

Or should I just buy an older thyrsistor style flash which can set the ASA and aperture? But AFAIK from the models I’ve seen, the dials on the back are only guides which give you some guideline as to what to set the aperture to, but only fire at full power or at most in “Low” model vs. “High”.

Any ideas? I’ve confused especially how to use my newer flash or if I should get an older flash that would be better suited for this older camera.

removed account4 · Oct 11, 2019

Hi brainmonster
do you have the manual for it ? ( you can google the name of the flash and get the manual )
From what i can guess from my Nikon flash that has focal lengths, that will tell you the coverage/splash of the flash ,...
like a narrow field of view vs a narrow one in the distance ( if that makes sense ). I'd leave it on whatever the FL of your camera is
and burn a roll of film at 125thS at 10 feet and start at f8 and bracket to 11 and 22 and 5.6 so you can see what it looks like... and then work accordingly
remembering the good old inverse square law.
good luck !
john

MattKing · Oct 12, 2019

The older automatic flashes that employ thyristor circuits actually measure the light bouncing back from the subject and quench the flash when the subject has been properly exposed. The thyristor circuits then save the remaining electrical energy, for later use.
The older, non-thyristor based auto flashes waste that extra energy.
You might be able to use the flash manually, using the guide number system, but a read through the manual for that flash doesn't even mention how to use the flash with non-Minolta cameras.

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

After reading a bit more, it looks like my Minolta flash will not work. These newer flashes are designed with TTL in mind and do not have the sensor as the older thyristor flashes do. So, for my Lubitel 166B, I’m in need of an older style thyristor flash to use with it.

Can anyone recommend a good one?

I’ve seen recommended a Vivitar 283 flash, or Sunpak 383. Something like that would be what I need but I’m not sure what would be best for use with a pc sync cord with the Lubitel 166B, if anyone knows.

MattKing said:
The older automatic flashes that employ thyristor circuits actually measure the light bouncing back from the subject and quench the flash when the subject has been properly exposed. The thyristor circuits then save the remaining electrical energy, for later use.
The older, non-thyristor based auto flashes waste that extra energy.
You might be able to use the flash manually, using the guide number system, but a read through the manual for that flash doesn't even mention how to use the flash with non-Minolta cameras.

John Koehrer · Oct 12, 2019

The 283 and 285 are very similar. GN of 110 or so. The main difference to me is that the 283 is smaller and has a "vari power" accessory and filter adapter available as accessories. The 285 has the varipower adapter and filter adapter built in and they cannot be removed.
The size difference is from the filter adapter that's 2 1/2 X 4 1/4 across the front. and about 2" deep.

Both use the same accessories like battery holder, NiCad battery, extension cable fo the varipower thingy so you can put the sensor on the accessory
shoe or light stand. The older units have a high trigger voltage and cannot be used on digital cameras.
They both incorporate a tilting head. four auto ranges to 40'.

BrianShaw · Oct 12, 2019

The other difference is that 285 can be “focused” for wide, normal, or tele lenses whereas the 283 is fixed for normal lens.

Chan Tran · Oct 12, 2019

Unfortunately your flash is too new so they dropped the built in sensor to allow the flash to automatically control the exposure without any connection to the camera except the sync signal. So your only choice is to use manual mode and guide number but the guide number method doesn't work when you bounce the flash. The other option is to get a flash meter which is the most accurate method but it takes time.

Kino · Oct 12, 2019

Get a Vivitar 3900 Auto Thyrisotr "potato masher" or similar strobe. These things go cheap and you'll have all the power you'll ever need and you'll have a nice handle for the camera.

Dali · Oct 12, 2019

Obviously, you don't need a zoom head for your flash. Also, I would favor a compact flash to mount on the cold shoe (opposite to the cocking lever and the shutter trigger) and avoid a bulky handle. I have a Sunpak 321 and it fits well my Lubitel. You can buy such flash for a song (got mine from KEH for $15) as they are pretty old and don't have any "modern" feature which for us is a clear advantage.

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

Dali said:
Obviously, you don't need a zoom head for your flash. Also, I would favor a compact flash to mount on the cold shoe (opposite to the cocking lever and the shutter trigger) and avoid a bulky handle. I have a Sunpak 321 and it fits well my Lubitel. You can buy such flash for a song (got mine from KEH for $15) as they are pretty old and don't have any "modern" feature which for us is a clear advantage.

Yeah I was looking at those smaller flashes but wasn’t sure how well they worked. At this moment I’m just looking at a cheap flash to use it indoors, and it seems like a 283 might be overkill and not really fit on the coldshoe anyway. That one might be perfect for my use since it fits in the coldshoe, where the 283 would stick out awkwardly or I might need a bracket to use it.

Seems more practical, think I might pick up a sunpak 321 or similar, they are quite cheaper as well just to try out first, and also much lighter..

AgX · Oct 12, 2019

I would not bother at all on model of auto-exposure flash. Just buy the first one you come across locally and that has no battery chamber corrosion, and that has a guide number of your liking.

From my experience dead flashes are the exceptions. Some though may need quite some minutes to wake up after their long sleep.

As you lack experience with such flashes, all that will come with playing with that thing.

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

AgX said:
I would not bother at all on model of auto-exposure flash. Just buy the first one you come across locally and that has no battery chamber corrosion, and that has a guide number of your liking.

From my experience dead flashes are the exceptions. Some though may need quite some minutes to wake up after their long sleep.

As you lack experience with such flashes, all that will come with playing with that thing.

Thanks for assuaging my worries on such flashes, I was mostly worried because I know little about such older flash devices. But you’re right, I just need to get my hands on one to try it out.

Unfortunately though, I need to order one online because I live in Hawaii and it’s basically impossible to get this sort of thing in person. You’d only be able to buy a new flash in the store, there is no such store for used camera flashes here.

But from what I understand these older flashes are quite “hale and hearty” so they should work fine for quite some time, of course best to avoid corrosion.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2019

This one looks competent - $40.00 on Amazon, or $15 used.
https://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/pho/d/honolulu-camera-flash-and-lens/6979606192.html

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

MattKing said:
This one looks competent - $40.00 on Amazon, or $15 used.
https://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/pho/d/honolulu-camera-flash-and-lens/6979606192.html

Thanks, that's pretty cheap. It looks like it had Auto mode and a light sensor, but only at 18 feet and 36 feet. It's a really basic manual flash.
The Sunpak 321 looks like it supports a range 1.6'-14', and 1.6'-28'.

Seems like that's a better range, assuming it works. Not sure if that (newer) Precision DSLR300 flash will work if it's not exactly at the range listed.

Probably I'll pick up both since they're so cheap.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 12, 2019

brainmonster said:
Unfortunately though, I need to order one online because I live in Hawaii and it’s basically impossible to get this sort of thing in person. You’d only be able to buy a new flash in the store, there is no such store for used camera flashes here.

But from what I understand these older flashes are quite “hale and hearty” so they should work fine for quite some time, of course best to avoid corrosion.

Hawaii Camera on Waialae Ave. in Kaimuki is closing it’s rental operation and has lots of gear on sale right now. You might see if they have any flash units. Also check Treehouse.

That said, if you can use your auto flash in manual mode with the guide number system, that’s no different from using an old manual flash with the guide number system. Make yourself an exposure table correlating subject distance to aperture. Use the focus mechanism to determine the subject distance, check the table, and then you’ve got the aperture.

If you use modifiers like a diffuser, you can test to find the guide number and make additional table the flash with the diffuser. If you bounce, then you’ve got to account for the distance to the ceiling and the color of the ceiling, so it gets complicated, but if you shoot negative film, you can get in the ballpark. If the ceiling is more than about 15 feet or if it’s black, you can’t bounce anyway, so find one guide number for an 8 foot ceiling and another for a 15 foot ceiling, and you’ll be close enough for neg film.

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

Good to know, I'll check those places when I get the chance.

But with the new flash with the guide number system, it's true that I can make a chart to expose it properly. The difference is that with the Sunpak 321, I can leave the aperture as it is in the 2 auto modes in the ranges up to 14' and 28' respectively, without having too change the aperture if I change the distance. If I'm understanding correctly, my Minolta flash does not have the light sensor in the front which means I'd have to adjust the aperture more depending on the range of the subject, at each range increment in the GN chart, making it more difficult to get a correct exposure (Anyway, I'd have to change the settings more, it appears).

David A. Goldfarb said:
Hawaii Camera on Waialae Ave. in Kaimuki is closing it’s rental operation and has lots of gear on sale right now. You might see if they have any flash units. Also check Treehouse.

That said, if you can use your auto flash in manual mode with the guide number system, that’s no different from using an old manual flash with the guide number system. Make yourself an exposure table correlating subject distance to aperture. Use the focus mechanism to determine the subject distance, check the table, and then you’ve got the aperture.

If you use modifiers like a diffuser, you can test to find the guide number and make additional table the flash with the diffuser. If you bounce, then you’ve got to account for the distance to the ceiling and the color of the ceiling, so it gets complicated, but if you shoot negative film, you can get in the ballpark. If the ceiling is more than about 15 feet or if it’s black, you can’t bounce anyway, so find one guide number for an 8 foot ceiling and another for a 15 foot ceiling, and you’ll be close enough for neg film.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2019

brainmonster said:
Thanks, that's pretty cheap. It looks like it had Auto mode and a light sensor, but only at 18 feet and 36 feet. It's a really basic manual flash.
The Sunpak 321 looks like it supports a range 1.6'-14', and 1.6'-28'.

Seems like that's a better range, assuming it works. Not sure if that (newer) Precision DSLR300 flash will work if it's not exactly at the range listed.

Probably I'll pick up both since they're so cheap.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

As I read the portion of the manual I can find on the internet, it is an automatic flash that supports two ranges - up to 18', and up to 36'.
But I'll agree it is hard to tell.

brainmonster · Oct 12, 2019

MattKing said:
As I read the portion of the manual I can find on the internet, it is an automatic flash that supports two ranges - up to 18', and up to 36'.
But I'll agree it is hard to tell.

Yeah. In the manual for the DSLR300 it says to set the shutter speed to 1/60th of a second too. That seems pretty slow. The manual for the Sunpak 321 says to set the shutter speed to the highest value possible (it mentions that most cameras do 1/60th-1/125th, but supposedly the leaf shutter of the Lubitel 166B can sync at any speed (up to 1/250, theoretically).

Whew. OK, time to take a break! This stuff is complicated!

MattKing · Oct 12, 2019

brainmonster said:
Yeah. In the manual for the DSLR300 it says to set the shutter speed to 1/60th of a second too. That seems pretty slow. The manual for the Sunpak 321 says to set the shutter speed to the highest value possible (it mentions that most cameras do 1/60th-1/125th, but supposedly the leaf shutter of the Lubitel 166B can sync at any speed (up to 1/250, theoretically).

Whew. OK, time to take a break! This stuff is complicated!

The manual I've seen certainly isn't a comprehensive one.
Most likely, that reference to 1/60th is there because it is a safe suggestion, covering most older 35mm film cameras.
If you drill down to the flash specifications, you will note that the flash duration is much shorter than that. I'm quite sure that the wording used in the Sunpak flash manual you reference is actually more appropriate for the DSLR300. Its just less helpful for people who might not have the background to understand it.

David A. Goldfarb · Oct 13, 2019

brainmonster said:
Good to know, I'll check those places when I get the chance.

But with the new flash with the guide number system, it's true that I can make a chart to expose it properly. The difference is that with the Sunpak 321, I can leave the aperture as it is in the 2 auto modes in the ranges up to 14' and 28' respectively, without having too change the aperture if I change the distance. If I'm understanding correctly, my Minolta flash does not have the light sensor in the front which means I'd have to adjust the aperture more depending on the range of the subject, at each range increment in the GN chart, making it more difficult to get a correct exposure (Anyway, I'd have to change the settings more, it appears).

It is true, that you have another thing to think about using manual flash, and it isn't always practical, but in my experience, if you've run good tests or have an accurate GN from the manufacturer, manually calculated flash exposure is more accurate than non-TTL auto flash with the sensor on the flash unit.

wiltw · Oct 13, 2019

I looked on the web and found that the Minolta 5600 has a Guide Number (assumes 50mm lens coverage) of 44m, which converts to GN 144 ft.
You could use your flash simply as a manual controlled flash, and use Guide Nuumber arithmetic for the f/stop (this information assuming ISO 100)

GN144/ 18' = f/8
GN144/ 13' = f11
GN144/ 9' = f/16
GN144/ 72' = f/2

You can still use fractional power simply by computing the new GN

Full power = GN144
Half power = 144/ 1.414 = GN102
Quarter power = 144/ 2 = GN72

Sinmply scale for different IS0 values

ISO 200 = 144 * 1.414
ISO 400 = 144 * 2

AgX · Oct 13, 2019

brainmonster said:
Thanks, that's pretty cheap. It looks like it had Auto mode and a light sensor, but only at 18 feet and 36 feet. It's a really basic manual flash.

You misunderstand...

That model even is quite advanced with twisting, tilting and zooming head and auto-exposure confirmation light. The IR accessory flash for AF seems fake though and it only yields two auto-apertures.

That flash does not work only at 18 and 36 feet, but that are the maximum distances for the two auto-apertures. The minimum distances are just not given.

brainmonster · Oct 13, 2019

AgX said:
You misunderstand...

That model even is quite advanced with twisting, tilting and zooming head and auto-exposure confirmation light. The IR accessory flash for AF seems fake though and it only yields two auto-apertures.

That flash does not work only at 18 and 36 feet, but that are the maximum distances for the two auto-apertures. The minimum distances are just not given.

Ok, but I bought the subpak 321 now because of my earlier observations. Do I need another one now? I’m tempted to save it for a vivitar 285 if I can find one in good condition. $10 is pretty cheap though.

But, can this model act as a slave, or is rather the 285 the better buy. The 285 can vary the power, can zoom and tilt and do all that. They seem pretty close. But the dslr300 has no asa setting at all, you’ve just got to change your aperture on the camera.

AgX · Oct 13, 2019

Sunpak flashes are ultra rare over here, I would have to look it up.

I know of hardly any flashes that have built-in slave function. But you can buy a slave sensor-switch in hot-shoe form. A attached flash than can either be used in manual mode (with selected output if available) or in auto mode.

BrianShaw · Oct 13, 2019

I think your over complicating things, BM. Since you bought a flash that was cheap, try it... you’ll figure out if it meets your needs rather quickly. But no matter, think about a flash handle if your going to do much more than experiment.

How do I meter the flash on my Lubitel 166B?

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