Hope to find a Developer (Amidol) for film

mohmad khatab · Mar 23, 2021

Hi ,,
I have a chance to get a good amount of (Amidol) at a good price, and I was hoping to find a formula based on this ingredient in order to prepare a developer concentrates like Rodinal or Kalogen - but I want a developer with a different flavor than them.
It has the advantage of having a long life and good results.

But I don't have glycine or catechol. With great regret.
I have hydroquinone in large quantities, maybe 3 kilos.
I prepare these concentrates and distribute them at a nominal price and in many neighborhoods (for free) to young Egyptian amateur photographers.
Can I find someone to help me please ..
God bless you

Alan Johnson · Mar 23, 2021

Go to Resources >Recipes >P3 >Universal Amidol Developer, I did not try it.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 23, 2021

It is said that Amidol developers don't keep well and have to be used immediately after preparing. This rules out the possibility of a long lasting water based concentrated developer along the lines of Rodinal. OTOH people have reported that a solution of Amidol in Glycol stays well.

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2021

A little bit of citric acid will prolong the amidol activity to about a full day, but also makes it pH acidic rather than alkaline, so you'd need either a plain water or slightly alkaline stop. I suspect it would be hopeless trying to mix up a concentrate in advance. Finding good amidol can be difficult. The cheap Chinese version which flooded the market a few years ago was contaminated with something, perhaps nickel, that creates an orange stain tedious to wash out.

mohmad khatab · Mar 23, 2021

DREW WILEY said:
A little bit of citric acid will prolong the amidol activity to about a full day, but also makes it pH acidic rather than alkaline, so you'd need either a plain water or slightly alkaline stop. I suspect it would be hopeless trying to mix up a concentrate in advance. Finding good amidol can be difficult. The cheap Chinese version which flooded the market a few years ago was contaminated with something, perhaps nickel, that creates an orange stain tedious to wash out.

Hi everyone and thank you for responding.
Amidol component offered to buy, is one of the best types, according to the words of the honest merchant I deal with, it is (English) industry and not Chinese, but it is relatively old.
If the goal of making concentrates based on this element is almost impossible.
Could we think of preparing a powder combined with ascorbic acid and putting it in a bag and giving it to new hobbyists so that it is similar to the version (D76) which is sold in the form of powder inside a yellow bag that is mixed a quarter of an hour before development?
I suspect that if we collectively think about this, we may succeed in devising a cheap recipe that will benefit new hobbyists.

reddesert · Mar 23, 2021

Amidol is somewhat more toxic than most developing agents and one is generally advised to wear a filter mask when mixing it to avoid inhaling any powder. With that in addition to the poor keeping properties, an Amidol-based developer seems less than ideal for distribution to novice photographers.

D-23 is a possibility. It uses only Metol and sodium sulfite. Grant Haist's D-76H uses just Metol, sodium sulfite, and borax (borax is usually easy to find). D-76H was designed to be similar to D-76 but eliminate the hydroquinone, see Tim Layton's description at https://www.timlaytonfineart.com/bl...ow-to-make-an-eco-friendly-b-w-film-developer

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 23, 2021

Amidol was used in paper developers. It famously turned fingernails black. As mentioned it is somewhat more toxic than other developing agents.

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2021

I wear gloves. I'm not a rock star who thinks they need black nail polish! But I mix all the ingredients except the amidol in advance, in tightly bottled stock solution which keeps maybe a couple months, then add the dry amidol powder itself at the start of the actual work session. Amidol is nice for Bromide papers if you're seeking a cold tone. I've experimented with it in film developers, but don't see any advantage to it in that case except a tad of relatively unpredictable film speed increase.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 23, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Could we think of preparing a powder combined with ascorbic acid and putting it in a bag and giving it to new hobbyists so that it is similar to the version (D76) which is sold in the form of powder inside a yellow bag that is mixed a quarter of an hour before development?

Please see the post by @David A. Goldfarb here which gives a formula of the kind you're looking for. You can perhaps reach out to David and find out if he has anything more to say about the formula.

mohmad khatab said:
I suspect that if we collectively think about this, we may succeed in devising a cheap recipe that will benefit new hobbyists.

Unfortunately, Amidol is an expensive chemical in most parts of the world. Even in India where photochemistry is relatively cheap, 25g of Amidol costs ~113 USD according to this seller. Unless someone already has a good amount of Amidol like you, it is unlikely that one would want to spend so much money and time on an experiment that is unlikely to produce better results than the more commonly available and much cheaper developers. Also, why would hobbyists want to use a developer that is largely untested? A tried and tested developer is always better from their point of view. Thornton's Two Bath developer might suit their needs than any Amidol developer.

mohmad khatab · Mar 24, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Please see the post by @David A. Goldfarb here which gives a formula of the kind you're looking for. You can perhaps reach out to David and find out if he has anything more to say about the formula.

Unfortunately, Amidol is an expensive chemical in most parts of the world. Even in India where photochemistry is relatively cheap, 25g of Amidol costs ~113 USD according to this seller. Unless someone already has a good amount of Amidol like you, it is unlikely that one would want to spend so much money and time on an experiment that is unlikely to produce better results than the more commonly available and much cheaper developers. Also, why would hobbyists want to use a developer that is largely untested? A tried and tested developer is always better from their point of view. Thornton's Two Bath developer might suit their needs than any Amidol developer.

I tried to communicate with this engineer (@ David A. Goldfarb) before, but he does not answer me, and I think he is too busy and does not have time to respond to colleagues' messages.

- Yes, this element is already very expensive, but I will get it at a good price, because it is from the waste of (Cinema City laboratories), which are laboratories belonging to the Ministry of Culture, and have gone bankrupt and their contents have been sold and bought by some chemical dealers.
You can say that I will get a (sort of) stolen item, but it is legally stolen.

mohmad khatab · Mar 24, 2021

reddesert said:
Amidol is somewhat more toxic than most developing agents and one is generally advised to wear a filter mask when mixing it to avoid inhaling any powder. With that in addition to the poor keeping properties, an Amidol-based developer seems less than ideal for distribution to novice photographers.

D-23 is a possibility. It uses only Metol and sodium sulfite. Grant Haist's D-76H uses just Metol, sodium sulfite, and borax (borax is usually easy to find). D-76H was designed to be similar to D-76 but eliminate the hydroquinone, see Tim Layton's description at https://www.timlaytonfineart.com/bl...ow-to-make-an-eco-friendly-b-w-film-developer

Sir ,,
Thank you for sharing, regarding photographic chemistry ,, I absolutely do not like to mess around with original formulas for the environment.
I am proud that I am the man, the enemy of the environment.
This planet is useless ,,
I will go with Elon Musk to live on Mars (if God writes this to us)
On the other hand, I hate the (D76) formula, and I think it is a trivial formula with no personality - I like Mr. Crowley's recipes especially (FX10) and the rest of the recipes that this great man has created and I think it was like an out-of-the-box thought.
And in any case, I respect the idea of the Agfa company, all its recipes are close to my heart, and you will find that each style has a specific flavor.
- I am here in another situation .. I want a formula based on the component Amidol because there is a respectable thief who stole a good amount of this ingredient legally, and this thief wants to sell me some of it at a very excellent price, and I think that it is an opportunity that will not be compensated ..
And in the midst of all these data
Don't come now and talk about the environment.
Sir ,, you should eat fish and not go near meat if you are an environmentalist.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Mar 24, 2021

Here are a few useful quotes from Haist about the stability of Amidol (Modern Photographic Processing, v.1, p. 180)

"Amidol and p-phenylenediamine have been used together in sodium bisulfite solution to produce a solution of good stability."

"One major disadvantage of developers containing Amidol is the lack of stability. The presence of stannic chloride in the developing solution has been reported to improve its keeping properties. F. L. English has found 'Half a gram of stannous chlorice (SnC12 ·2H20) and an equal amount of tartaric acid dissolved in 10 cc of water added to one liter of standard developer will increase the keeping quality, under normal storage conditions, several hundred percent; and the further addition of a few pieces of mossy tin will prevent serious discoloration for a matter of months.' "

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 24, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Please see the post by @David A. Goldfarb here which gives a formula of the kind you're looking for. You can perhaps reach out to David and find out if he has anything more to say about the formula.

I haven't tried that formula (Agfa A-47), but only mentioned it in that thread because I was aware of it. I'm tempted to try it because I have a supply of Amidol. I've only really used Amidol for printing, not for developing film.

mohmad khatab · Mar 24, 2021

David A. Goldfarb said:
I haven't tried that formula (Agfa A-47), but only mentioned it in that thread because I was aware of it. I'm tempted to try it because I have a supply of Amidol. I've only really used Amidol for printing, not for developing film.

We used to have a movie theater north of Cairo called (Honolulu) ,, and my father used to tell me that he used to go with my mother to that cinema during the engagement days.
This auditorium has been removed and a shopping mall has been built in its place.
I used to find it difficult to understand this strange name, but now I knew that it was the name of an American city.
For the sake of the splendor and honor of the Honolulu name it is necessary to create a brilliant idea in order to benefit from this component of Amidol.
I find it difficult to understand the idea of our French Canadian friend from Montreal.

mohmad khatab · Mar 24, 2021

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:
Here are a few useful quotes from Haist about the stability of Amidol (Modern Photographic Processing, v.1, p. 180)

"Amidol and p-phenylenediamine have been used together in sodium bisulfite solution to produce a solution of good stability."

"One major disadvantage of developers containing Amidol is the lack of stability. The presence of stannic chloride in the developing solution has been reported to improve its keeping properties. F. L. English has found 'Half a gram of stannous chlorice (SnC12 ·2H20) and an equal amount of tartaric acid dissolved in 10 cc of water added to one liter of standard developer will increase the keeping quality, under normal storage conditions, several hundred percent; and the further addition of a few pieces of mossy tin will prevent serious discoloration for a matter of months.' "

My dear brother, Michelle.
God bless you .
I am finding some difficulty in understanding your article.
Could you explain it with some precision, please.
I currently have p-phenylenediamine.
As well as (Hydroquinone), (Metol) and (CD2).
Also, I have a golden opportunity to own half a kilo of Amidol that was stolen from the Egyptian government in a legal way. I can get it at a more wonderful price.

- But the items that I like to call (the evil elements) are not available or available at a price that needs a bank robbery in order to buy them and they are
Glycine - catechol or pyrocatechicol - pyrogallol - phenidion.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 24, 2021

David A. Goldfarb said:
I haven't tried that formula (Agfa A-47), but only mentioned it in that thread because I was aware of it. I'm tempted to try it because I have a supply of Amidol. I've only really used Amidol for printing, not for developing film.

If you can try and share your results, it'll be a very interesting data point. At the moment, no example of negatives developed in Amidol is available on the web.

mohmad khatab · Mar 25, 2021

May God have mercy on the Lord ((pat gainer))

The main concern of this man was how to take advantage of the wonderful benefits of (ascorbic acid),
First he created a recipe based on (Xtol) called (MyTol) and he added (ascorbic acid) to you, but her problem was that she was exposed to sudden death because she was in an environment with water.

So, he dares to update Rodinal formula and add (ascorbic acid) by using a neutral solvent (propylene glycol mono). And he succeeded in those endeavors, amazingly indeed.

Someday I will display the original Rodinal results with Rodinal pat gainer results in order to see the difference this respected researcher made.

- I think we can follow this man’s path one way or another.
- I read in an article here that (Amidol) can accept solubility in the environment of solvent PP.
And if this happens, this means that he will accept the presence of ascorbic acid with him in the same environment.

- These are just thoughts wandering in my mind, I consider myself a moron, but perhaps a useful idea emerges from the mouth of the fool.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Mar 25, 2021

- The author recommends to mix 0.5g of stannic chloride (SnC12 ·2H20) and 0.5g of tartaric acid in 10 mL of water.
- Add this to 1L of Amidol developer.
- Your Amidol developer will last much longer.

Another option is to mix p-phenylenediamine with sodium bisulfite and Amidol. But there is no recipe.

Does that help?

mohmad khatab said:
My dear brother, Michelle.
God bless you .
I am finding some difficulty in understanding your article.
Could you explain it with some precision, please.
I currently have p-phenylenediamine.
As well as (Hydroquinone), (Metol) and (CD2).
Also, I have a golden opportunity to own half a kilo of Amidol that was stolen from the Egyptian government in a legal way. I can get it at a more wonderful price.

- But the items that I like to call (the evil elements) are not available or available at a price that needs a bank robbery in order to buy them and they are
Glycine - catechol or pyrocatechicol - pyrogallol - phenidion.

mohmad khatab · Mar 25, 2021

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:
- The author recommends to mix 0.5g of stannic chloride (SnC12 ·2H20) and 0.5g of tartaric acid in 10 mL of water.
- Add this to 1L of Amidol developer.
- Your Amidol developer will last much longer.

Another option is to mix p-phenylenediamine with sodium bisulfite and Amidol. But there is no recipe.

Does that help?

Thank you, my Canadian brother.
0.5g of stannic chloride (SnC12 ·2H20)
0.5g of tartaric acid in 10 mL of water
Add this to 1L of Amidol developer. (Does he mean I should have an amidol paper developer?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's okay, now we have an idea.
But we are considering making a long-lasting concentrate similar to Kalogen - it can live for more than six months and maybe a year or two.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 26, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
But we are considering making a long-lasting concentrate similar to Kalogen - it can live for more than six months and maybe a year or two.

Gainer has a solution for you here:

Ascorbic acid: 10g
Amidol: 0.1g
Propylene glycol to make: 100ml

As you don't have TEA available, try using a carbonate-bicarbonate buffer of pH ~10 (i.e. 1g bicarbonate + 1.5g carbonate in 250ml water).

mohmad khatab · Mar 26, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Gainer has a solution for you here:

Ascorbic acid: 10g
Amidol: 0.1g
Propylene glycol to make: 100ml

As you don't have TEA available, try using a carbonate-bicarbonate buffer of pH ~10 (i.e. 1g bicarbonate + 1.5g carbonate in 250ml water).

This format would probably be very successful and wonderful if you, myself, or any real photography hobbyist used it.
But I want an easy recipe like (Kalogen) - I can tell a novice hobbyist (1: 99 dilution) time 12 minutes - 20 ° C. ,,,
This is how a somewhat novice hobbyist will understand.
The beginner Egyptian hobbyist is a moron by nature and half crazy .. And since the mental hospital has a limited number of beds, it cannot accept millions of people.
We can never ask this moron (half crazy) to use that recipe, he never understands, he is ill-intentioned, maybe then he will think that you are testing new formulas on him and he will tell you ((Oh brother, I am not a test rat).)

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 26, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
This format would probably be very successful and wonderful if you, myself, or any real photography hobbyist used it.

Let's hope some rich philanthropist (say an Arab prince) will take interest in Amidol based film developers, spend his money on R&D for synthesizing a long lasting concentrated developer and give you the development data for a variety of films and dilutions. We can always dream.

mohmad khatab · Mar 26, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Let's hope some rich philanthropist (say an Arab prince) will take interest in Amidol based film developers, spend his money on R&D for synthesizing a long lasting concentrated developer and give you the development data for a variety of films and dilutions. We can always dream.

Oh dear .
Dreams are the only free thing on this planet.
Let's dream. why not .?

relistan · Mar 26, 2021

mohmad khatab said:
Oh dear .
Dreams are the only free thing on this planet.
Let's dream. why not .?

Mohmad, I think that the formula Raghu supplied from Patrick Gainer will be quite easy to use. If you have propylene glycol, you can mix up the concentrate A. Separately you could supply small bags of B with the carbonate/bicarbonate.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 26, 2021

relistan said:
Mohmad, I think that the formula Raghu supplied from Patrick Gainer will be quite easy to use. If you have propylene glycol, you can mix up the concentrate A. Separately you could supply small bags of B with the carbonate/bicarbonate.

Karl, if I understood correctly, his concern is that Gainer's amidol-ascorbic developer is largely untested and development time data is not available. Unfortunately, he doesn't have b&w film with him for doing his own tests. And it's quite expensive too. His goal is to prepare concentrated developers and supply them to hobbyists in his country. So he wants some formula that is either well-tested or someone in this forum is willing to test on a few films and give accurate data to him. Unfortunately, his customers are not ready to do the tests themselves - they want something that works painlessly the very first time they use it. If I had Amidol at my disposal, I would have tested Gainer's recipe and given approximate development time for a couple of films.

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