Homebrew XTOL?

[eclarke]

"You may need to add a few ml of water to the TEA/salicylic acid mixture to get everyting into solution and form the triethanolamine salicylate."

So, I want triethanolamine salicylate to form and it forms in the developer with a straight mix?

 

[Gerald Koch]

Actually the triethanolamine salicylate forms when you mix the two chemicals together. No water is necessary to make it form but might be needed in keeping it in solution. The actual presence of this chemical in the developer is not necessary, it just happens to form from the two ingredients. The TEA is part of the buffer system in this developer. The salicylic acid is present to chelate any iron present in the water or the chemicals used to make the developer. This helps to prevent the sudden death to which ascorbate developers are prone.

 

[Ryuji]

The salicylic acid dissolved for me but required about 45 minutes with a magnetic stirrer.

This shouldn't happen... Salicylic acid dissolves into alkaline water a lot more easily than into plain water. Salicylic acid can also be dissolved in organic solvents, but I make a mix with TEA. TEA is also a good buffering agent for pH of 8 range, and DS-10 is made that way.

To answer other questions, for Pan F Plus I recommend DS-12 or DS-2. They are photographically almost identical but DS-12 is more reliable. (However, I haven't seen an unpredictable failure with DS-2.)

 

[Ryuji]

This would prevent making DS-10 in a 5X concentrate.

DS-10 in 5x concentrate would be problematic not only for salicylic acid but also for sulfite and others. In this range of concentration, when one dissolves, the others come out, and it's like a see-saw.

I have a new approach to stabilize DS-10 even further. One thing I wasn't too happy with DS-10 was that it didn't keep as well as DS-12 and DS-14. This is most likely due to different pH and effect of salicylate-TEA combination works better in a certain pH range than the other, so I have different combinations in use for developer of different pH range. Anyway, an improved DS-10 (with lower fog level and smoother tonality with 400 speed films) was made in my darkroom several months ago and they are working fine in my darkroom. It'll be handed over to Digitaltruth soon. And I'm not forgetting about darkroom chemistry enthusiasts. I'm trying to work out something.

 

[Ryuji]

I was able to get salicylic acid USP through my local pharmacy on special order. I paid $13 for 100 grams.

You can also get it from www.techcheminc.com for $12 for 100 grams.

This is a quarter cheaper:

http://digitaltruth.com/store/rawchemicals.html

My $0.25 worth...

 

[eclarke]

This shouldn't happen... Salicylic acid dissolves into alkaline water a lot more easily than into plain water. Salicylic acid can also be dissolved in organic solvents, but I make a mix with TEA. TEA is also a good buffering agent for pH of 8 range, and DS-10 is made that way.

To answer other questions, for Pan F Plus I recommend DS-12 or DS-2. They are photographically almost identical but DS-12 is more reliable. (However, I haven't seen an unpredictable failure with DS-2.)

There's the rub, I have not been mixing in order ( spoiled by DS-2) Bad Evan. I have been weighing everything and just doing a dump, I will mix in order tonight. At any rate the results are more pleasing to me than Xtol..Thanks Ryuji..Evan Clarke

 

[Ryuji]

I think all-at-once should work, except that it may bubble carbon dioxide and may disturb the pH. I'd do this:
sulfite -> TEA -> salicylic acid -> ascorbic acid -> (completely dissolve all) -> carbonates -> Metol

Metol will take some time to dissolve, as expected.

If you make concentrated DS-12, I'd use only 20g/L of sulfite at first and do the above, followed by the remainder of the sulfite at last.

 

[eclarke]

I think all-at-once should work, except that it may bubble carbon dioxide and may disturb the pH. I'd do this:
sulfite -> TEA -> salicylic acid -> ascorbic acid -> (completely dissolve all) -> carbonates -> Metol

Metol will take some time to dissolve, as expected.

If you make concentrated DS-12, I'd use only 20g/L of sulfite at first and do the above, followed by the remainder of the sulfite at last.

Thanks for the good advice!! Are you working on emulsions for film as an eventual product?? I am very interested in this. My brother-in-law is an emulsion chemist and was raised at Ansco when he graduated from RIT. He was for many years, technical service director for Ansco/GAF/Anitech/HP/Kodak dismantled the coating machine. WE have ben discusing emulsions and coating for a while now, only to safeguard myself in the future (I am pushing on 60 so there is not a lot of future, I am the last and oldest of my clan in 4 generations ). At the least, I would like to pour some dry plates

 

[Ryuji]

Are you working on emulsions for film as an eventual product??

Not at this point... but I like to do something related to the emulsions at some later time.

I started making processing chemicals because ones off the shelf were not exactly what I wanted. I gave the formula to a company because I'd rather have them mix my chemicals for my use Sooooo if similar things happen to films and papers, I'm most likely to think along the same line.

One problem is that mixing emulsion and coating on film and paper all require serious level of quality control. It's not like sending a copy of formula and mixing/packaging instruction to the chemical plant. But we are never too early to start discussing future possibilities

I am very interested in this. My brother-in-law is an emulsion chemist and was raised at Ansco when he graduated from RIT. He was for many years, technical service director for Ansco/GAF/Anitech/HP/Kodak dismantled the coating machine.

What's his name? Did he publish his work or got his name on patents? (maybe this should go to email)

I think "safeguard" was one of my initial intentions to get started. But I think another way to think about it is to make something unique that major companies can't afford to make. I soon realized that there is no point of making stuff that's made by Ilford in my darkroom. It's just more expensive to so and not a lot of fun.