Homebrew C-Developers from ascorbate-developers.blogspot.com

[olk]

Hi,
I'd like to replace XTOL by one Homebrew C-Developer I found at https://ascorbate-developers.blogspot.com/2011/03/recipes.html.
The block contains a lot of interesting recipes like, Fenomenal (PCB + Parodinal), LOMAD(Diafie clone, a XTOL clone using Fotoplex-2 etc).
Do you have some experience with those developers? I'd like to sort similar developers out in order to reduce the amount of films required for testing (measuring speed point, development times etc.).
best regards, Oliver

 

[koraks]

I can't comment on the formulas you mentioned, but I personally use mostly instant mytol these days, using XTOL development times. The stuff is cheap enough to use one shot and since its performance seems quite the same as XTOL, I found no need for experimentation.

 

[grain elevator]

The ascorbate potion most discussed here must be Mytol. Search the forum for it. Also look for PC-glycol and PC-TEA (my choice for now).

 

[albada]

The original site for Instant Mytol is down (and maybe gone), so I'll repeat the formula here:

750 ml water
60 g sodium sulfite
11.5 g ascorbic acid
0.15 g phenidone
7 g sodium metaborate
Water to 1 L

Jordon Wosnick, the creator of Instant Mytol, said that he was able to dissolve the phenidone in water at 30 deg. C.

Mark

 

[mohmad khatab]

The original site for Instant Mytol is down (and maybe gone), so I'll repeat the formula here:

750 ml water
60 g sodium sulfite
11.5 g ascorbic acid
0.15 g phenidone
7 g sodium metaborate
Water to 1 L

Jordon Wosnick, the creator of Instant Mytol, said that he was able to dissolve the phenidone in water at 30 deg. C.

Mark

How much time is required

 

[Donald Qualls]

The other way I've seen (and done) to be able to keep the phenidone water-free until ready for use is to make a stock solution of 1% or 2% (10 g/L or 20 g/L) phenidone in something water-free. I've used 91% isopropyl, which is very cheap at grocery stores and pharmacies in the USA; others have reported poor success with 90% ethanol (for ethanol, 95% is probably preferred) and prefer polyethylene glycol. Either way, the phenidone dissolves reasonably well in the water-free stock (and there's no rush, preparing this ahead), which can then be added by volume to the developer at room temperature without delays for the phenidone to dissolve or waiting for the solution to cool to room temperature.

 

[Bormental]

@Donald Qualls I thought you're a happy Mytol user, yet you've started a batch of Xtol-R. Are there any issues with Mytol? Just for fun, I have "make my own developer from basic chems" on my TODO list, and Mytol seems to be the obvious candidate. Looks like it's safe (nothing ever gets too hot) and high-quality. Any reason to not do it?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I haven't made Mytol yet -- I've had this package of Xtol (expired 2002) for years, but decided to try it (I was still getting the chemicals together to make Mytol). I was looking for confirmation that Mytol can self-replenish (which I still haven't gotten) -- but Eco-Pro is confirmed to do so, at the same replenishment rate as Xtol, so if Xtol is still hard to get when I start to run low, I'll probably switch to Eco-Pro and buy two or three packages up front.

I'm after a couple different things: consistency, non-dependence on Kodak Alaris (in whom my confidence has been dropping for a while), and lowest possible cost. If I could confirm Mytol self-replenishment that would clearly win on cost (and a working replenishement system will always win on consistency), and I do still plan to mix some to try, but the only thing I've been able to find relative to Mytol replenishment is someone asking about the pH going off target and how to correct the replenishment rate -- and the thread ending before it was definitively answered.

I've mixed my own developers -- D-23 and DK-25R (ran that replenished stock for several months back around '05-'06), Parodinal, and multiple variations of Caffenol (before the Caffenol Cookbook came out). I've also made and used Dignan's 2-bath C-41 and used it with good results for a few months (I may still have the bottles in the shed, I should at least clip test it again). I've wanted to try Mytol, but it's good to have actual Xtol to compare against -- and Xtol-R has a pretty decent cost per roll (Eco-Pro is about the same in replenishment).

 

[Bormental]

Allright, looks like we're in the same boat. Whoever tries Mytolf first, warns the others! I do believe though, that for "scientific" significance Mytol needs to be compared against fresh, full-strength Xtol. I suspect that Xtol-R output varies from person to person based on frequency of use, rate of replenishment, etc

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've got all the chemicals on hand for Mytol now, but my time is somewhat limited -- this weekend, for instance, I have a ham radio club meeting (haven't been to one in four months, what with Covid-19), a Dungeons and Dragons game, and some need to physically rest up after my workplace was moved to a new location this week (with internal labor -- that is, we packed it up loaded it, then unloaded and are in process of unpacking). Then there's my partner nagging me to get my space organized (apparently, it's an anxiety trigger to have my stuff in boxes after the recent house repairs -- good grief, it's in my way, not anyone else's). Most likely I can come up with time to mix up a liter or two and run a test roll next weekend, if you don't get to it first -- but it might be another week after that before I can post results, even in the form of negative scans (and yet some time before I'm quite ready to make prints).

 

[albada]

How much time is required

I just noticed this question in the thread which was not answered.
Instant Mytol is intended to be a clone of XTOL, so you would use the same development-times as XTOL.
Mark Overton

 

[Murray Kelly]

I just noticed this question in the thread which was not answered.
Instant Mytol is intended to be a clone of XTOL, so you would use the same development-times as XTOL.
Mark Overton

Mark! Good to see you . Did you ever come up with a life expectancy for MOCON?

 

[albada]

Mark! Good to see you . Did you ever come up with a life expectancy for MOCON?

My sample has been in the freezer for 7-1/2 years, and used occasionally, and still has no yellowing or sign of weakening. And it gives the same quality as XTOL, so I regard Mocon as a winner.
Mark Overton

 

[Alan Johnson]

Many of the developers at the blogspot and those of Gainer do not contain the solvent sodium sulfite or are of high pH and give more grainy results.
IMO that is why Mytol is better but there is also DS-10 from Silvergrain Labs on the web archive:
https://web.archive.org/web/2008093...grain.com/labs/Film_Developer_Recommendations

 

[grain elevator]

Many of the developers at the blogspot and those of Gainer do not contain the solvent sodium sulfite or are of high pH and give more grainy results.
IMO that is why Mytol is better but there is also DS-10 from Silvergrain Labs on the web archive:
https://web.archive.org/web/2008093...grain.com/labs/Film_Developer_Recommendations

It's true that Patrick Gainer was after non-solvent developers. However there have been internet discussions about how effective a silver solvent TEA is. My very fine grained results with Fomapan 200, normally rather grainy, in PC-TEA, make me believe it has significant solvent action.

 

[Rudeofus]

For a long time I reiterated other folks' statements, that TEA as a tertiary amine is not a solvent, until I tried it out with my bottle of TEA 99%: Silver Chloride dissolves nicely in TEA. It must be a stronger solvent that Sodium Sulfite.

About the ascorbate developers blog: i would be careful with the LOMAD recipe. In my experience HEDP plus water hardness create a nasty precipitate over time. The author uses the term "clean water", I recommend he either writes "deionized water", or adds some EDTA to the formula. Also, about the MF-x fixer recipes: "Ammonium Thiosulfate 60%" is measured as weight/weight! 200ml of Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% weighs about 266g, and therefore contain 266g*0.6 = 160 g pure Ammonium Thiosulfate. I doubt the author ever tried this recipe with dry Ammonium Thiosulfate.

 

[bluechromis]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Jordan also listed a version of Instant Mytol where most of the materials were in glycol/TEA for greater shelf life. One adds the sulphite with the stock when mixing the working solution. 1+19 is like Xtol stock and 1+39 is like 1+1. I have found that it works like regular Instant Mytol which in turn works similarly to Xtol. In my experience the shelf life of the stock sol. in glass was not quite as good as PC-TEA but still respectable and usually I use it up well before hitting the wall with shelf life. I am now trying it in a wood finish/IV bag.

"This formula can be mixed as an organic solution as well. Combine 13.4 ml triethanolamine and about 20 ml of propylene glycol and heat in a water bath or on a hot plate. Add 11.5 g ascorbic acid and 0.15 g phenidone and stir until dissolved (it could take quite a while -- magnetic stirring will help -- addition of 1-2 ml of water may also aid dissolution). Then dilute with propylene glycol to a final volume of 50 ml. This organic solution should keep almost indefinitely. To use, dilute 1+19 with water containing 60 g/L sodium sulfite."
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/instant-mytol.179/

 

[bluechromis]

Regarding the greater graininess of PC-TEA compared with solvent developers like Xtol and D-76, I have been curious about how much of that is due to the lack of sulphite and how is due to it's being more alkaline than Xtol. I have been using an ascorbate developer PG110B by Jay Defehr that is akin to PC-Glycol with a lavish amount of phenidone. To my eye it looks less grainy than PC-TEA. But not only does it lack sulfite, it also lacks any modest solvent action the TEA may have. I don't know what the pH of it is but wonder if it less than PC-TEA and hence the apparently finer grain. I have read that in times past it was thought that ascorbate developers had to have high pH and was a revelation when Xtol came out that one could work with lower pH.

PG110B original recipe
Dissolve in 50 ml warmed Propylene glycol:
Borax 30g
Ascorbic acid 10 g
Phenidone 1g
Top off with glycol to make 100ml

I had trouble getting all ingredients to dissolve in the glycol so I add the borax separately (3g per 500 mm) to the working solution and use 1+50.

 

[Alan Johnson]

IMO the grain with PC-TEA can be reduced using it at 1:100 dilution and extending the development time but I don't recall the pH.
If film is semi-stand developed in PC-TEA 1:100 the pH falls to about 8 after 1hr and the grain is possibly even finer than Xtol.
My conclusion from tests making 10x 15 in prints from 35mm some time ago
Not practicable for regular use.

 

[BradS]

Allright, looks like we're in the same boat. Whoever tries Mytolf first, warns the others! I do believe though, that for "scientific" significance Mytol needs to be compared against fresh, full-strength Xtol. I suspect that Xtol-R output varies from person to person based on frequency of use, rate of replenishment, etc

Mytol has been around for a relatively long time. It is or was widely used, and is generally well regarded. You might find some old posts here on the subject by using hte search function.

 

[relistan]

For those looking, here's Jordan's page that listed Mytol originally, from the Wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20181018085653/https://www.photosensitive.ca/wp/easy-film-developers

I have used PC-Glycol a fair bit now and with some potassium bromide added it can make quite nice negatives. I experimented adding more and more and eventually had way too much, but even so got some decent photos. Here's a shot on Fomapan 400, which is normally extremely grainy, in PC-Glycol. You can see the grain is not offensive.

I experimented with several different B baths and eventually settled back on the original 5g/L carbonate as the best. In Europe it's quite easy to get propylene glycol and it's odorless and inexpensive. Better than using stinky car antifreeze. I use washing soda from the grocery store as my source of carbonate. My most recent batch of PC-Glycol is three years old now and I used it last week, still working beautifully although it is visibly a bit yellow.

 

[relistan]

Here's another shot of a different subject matter for comparison, outside, also PC-Glycol with 5g/L carbonate on Fomapan 400:

Both of these are PC-Glycol 1+50, 5g/L carbonate, 1g/L potassium bromide, Fomapan 400 at EI200 (it's 10 year old film).

 

[Pixophrenic]

The original site for Instant Mytol is down (and maybe gone), so I'll repeat the formula here:

750 ml water
60 g sodium sulfite
11.5 g ascorbic acid
0.15 g phenidone
7 g sodium metaborate
Water to 1 L

Jordon Wosnick, the creator of Instant Mytol, said that he was able to dissolve the phenidone in water at 30 deg. C.

Mark

Phenidone/dimezone would relatively easily dissolve in an alkaline solution containing some sulfite. This can be gleaned from US 5853964A, describing an XTol like developer. Thus, from the above recipe, dissolve (in lukewarm water) some sulfite, all metaborate and then phenidone. After phenidone dissolves, add the rest of sulfite and ascorbic acid.
BTW, the ingenious procedure of dissolution, dissolving dimezone in the alkaline part, and then adding the acidic part, thus avoiding organic co-solvents, was mistakenly described in Cookbook II as some arcane buffering.

 

[BradS]

Here's another shot of a different subject matter for comparison, outside, also PC-Glycol with 5g/L carbonate on Fomapan 400:

View attachment 260018

Both of these are PC-Glycol 1+50, 5g/L carbonate, 1g/L potassium bromide, Fomapan 400 at EI200 (it's 10 year old film).

very nice tonality. I think I may have to give this recipe a try. Thanks!

Do you generally get full box speed with fresh, non-Foma films?

 

[relistan]

very nice tonality. I think I may have to give this recipe a try. Thanks!

Do you generally get full box speed with fresh, non-Foma films?

The only other film I've put through was HP5+ which seemed fine at box speed. The one roll I shot was fogged a bit without the potassium bromide. The potassium bromide helps prevent base fog but slows development from Gainer's original. Had I continued to use that film to experiment with, I would have needed something like 8-9 mins as a stating point. I use 8.5 for Fomapan 400 as I've been shooting it (EI200). Note that the carbonate measurement is anhydrous weight. I cooked the washing soda in the oven to dry it out.

I put the potassium bromide in the part B which makes it easy to change the amounts without having to remake the main stock.