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[Les Sarile]

To be honest, this is what I am getting from this conversation:
- and color balance is sort of like 'pixel peeping', to the normal eye it is not noticeable, much like noise. It isn't until you get out the microscope that it can be seen.

Microscope not needed and most evident in product and advertizing shots. Not so much in shots with no reference.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Les - I still have to fool around with Portra 400 (no easy task on the wallet since I mainly shoot 8x10. Most of the bad rap Ektar got early on was due to scanning deficiencies in small format. Most folks
assumed the quality of the scan only affects detail or dynamic range. But insufficient samply also
dramatically affects how the geometry of the respective dye curves respond in relation to each other, esp if the layers are crossed to begin with. I tested for this effect even though I don't print digitally at all. The smaller the neg, the better the scan you need. But I control curves the old-fashioned way with punch-and-register masking. Another problem is that folks wouldn't properly filter
for color balance and just assumed Ektar would behave like any other neg film (which they didn't
understand all that well either - if they got good skintones, everything seemed OK). But that's yet
another topic.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

To be honest, this is what I am getting from this conversation:

- optimum performance of film is at box speed
- color negative film can be shot at least one to three stops over exposed and still be useable
- it is best to over expose color neg film than under expose
- obnoxious amounts of overexposure can cause severe issues with color shift and contrast
- and color balance is sort of like 'pixel peeping', to the normal eye it is not noticeable, much like noise. It isn't until you get out the microscope that it can be seen.

That last item I'd take issue with. If you learn to print color, you'll see pretty quickly how little shift in color balance it takes for things to go from "hot damn!" to "hot mess". I've seen it where as little as 2 or 3 cc's of filtration change will make a print SNAP - two or three the other way and your whites start getting muddy. And its something that anyone viewing the print can see, not just a pixel-peeper.

 

[MattKing]

That last item I'd take issue with. If you learn to print color, you'll see pretty quickly how little shift in color balance it takes for things to go from "hot damn!" to "hot mess". I've seen it where as little as 2 or 3 cc's of filtration change will make a print SNAP - two or three the other way and your whites start getting muddy. And its something that anyone viewing the print can see, not just a pixel-peeper.

+1

 

[DREW WILEY]

Our modern ra4 papers are indeed like power steering with fairly steep spike geometry at the top.
I personally use additive enlargers which behave much like the colored lasers these papers are now
optimized for, and even a 1cc change will show. But when you hit the sweet spot you sense it.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Colour is funny, when we make 21 step wedges for calibration each time we use our laser enlarger, the densitometer and software program will say we are neutral but our eyes will perceive a colour bias. Good colour correctors are hard to find these days because of the white balance features you get on them darn pesky digital cameras.

I am afraid that in the future young photographers will lose the ability to colour correct but rely on white balance, or auto colour.

How many here have made extensive colour ring around's and understand them, analoque printers may be the only printers left able to tell 5 yellow bias from 5 yellow and two red bias and be able to understand how to correct the in balance.
sad to say.

 

[RPC]

Color balance is the relative amounts of red, green and blue in an image. It is important, and its correctness can be measured, but in my experience some people notice it very readily and some hardly at all. Just compare, for example an experienced color printer with a good eye for color, to the masses of people who get back crappily color corrected pictures from their local photo lab and never give it a second thought!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Color perception is related not only to specific light sources but to actual training. Over the years I've gotten a lot better at it, even though at one time I made some good side money as a color
consultant known for a good eye. Even when I've trained people to match color with a fairly expensive spectrophotometer, in the end you always do the fine-tuning by eye. If you're smart you'll take a second look the next morning when you're eyes are less fatigued. Same in the darkroom. Does it make a difference. Yes. Maybe the public can't articulate what makes a good color
print, but they often can sense it. Something snaps into place which defines quality.

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE, I can see the importance of rebalancing but not in this casual observation.

Les;

I agree, but my comment is directed to the fact that many "novices" don't know that and will thus consider your results absolute and not correctable. I hope you see my point. Thus with every case, one should rebalance for the entire audience. Sorry for the lack of clarity in my post.

I would add that when an instrument says something is balanced but the eye says something else, it is usually due to an illuminant difference in the instrument vs what is used to view the result.

I routinely expose at box speed or 1/3 stop over for best results. I have been doing this for over 30 years.

PE

 

[RPC]

Good colour correctors are hard to find these days because of the white balance features you get on them darn pesky digital cameras.

I am afraid that in the future young photographers will lose the ability to colour correct but rely on white balance, or auto colour.

On a related note, but trying not to get too far off topic, I work as a color corrector at a high volume photo lab that processes school sports pictures from photographers from around the country and the worst color we get is from photographers who rely on auto white balance in their cameras. On the other hand those who white balance manually and properly, generally have very consistant, properly balanced color. With auto white balance, the color can go all over the place making images harder to color balance. When we used to color balance film images, the color balance, contrast and saturation was much more consistant from shot to shot since it is all built into the film. This, and the better lattitude of film, made images much easier to color balance and produce better images in my opinion.

 

[Bob Carnie]

My main source of income has been from colour correcting. Today its done in PS with the tools available.. When I teach PS and workflow to groups , sadly the area that most (not all) are weak in is in colour theory. This is one of my first tests for students to ask them to explain the colour wheel and its implications.
We were taught how to work complimentary colours against each other to benefit an image and it amazes me students do not even have this rudimentary knowledge, but are attempting to make a living from their colour work.
The dumbing down of colour has happened where there seems to be a lot more acceptance of so so colour / saturation and density balance.
But I don't think I would like to go back to the old days of VCNas , kodak shirleys and translators, I am happy with supplied files these days.

When I get hired to print colour images for others these days, the first question I ask , is Do they want to control the colour, or do they want me too. 5 years ago most wanted me to control, today its about 70 - 80% want to control their destiny with their prints and that too is ok with me .

RCP I cannot imagine what its like now to work where you do, in my past I worked at a large wedding lab where volumne was king ,and the colour correctors were highly valued.. you must have a great eye as the responsibility is mind numbing with the number of jobs that must go past you..

On a related note, but trying not to get too far off topic, I work as a color corrector at a high volume photo lab that processes school sports pictures from photographers from around the country and the worst color we get is from photographers who rely on auto white balance in their cameras. On the other hand those who white balance manually and properly, generally have very consistant, properly balanced color. With auto white balance, the color can go all over the place making images harder to color balance. When we used to color balance film images, the color balance, contrast and saturation was much more consistant from shot to shot since it is all built into the film. This, and the better lattitude of film, made images much easier to color balance and produce better images in my opinion.

 

[RPC]

My main source of income has been from colour correcting. Today its done in PS with the tools available.. When I teach PS and workflow to groups , sadly the area that most (not all) are weak in is in colour theory. This is one of my first tests for students to ask them to explain the colour wheel and its implications.
We were taught how to work complimentary colours against each other to benefit an image and it amazes me students do not even have this rudimentary knowledge, but are attempting to make a living from their colour work.
The dumbing down of colour has happened where there seems to be a lot more acceptance of so so colour / saturation and density balance.
But I don't think I would like to go back to the old days of VCNas , kodak shirleys and translators, I am happy with supplied files these days.

When I get hired to print colour images for others these days, the first question I ask , is Do they want to control the colour, or do they want me too. 5 years ago most wanted me to control, today its about 70 - 80% want to control their destiny with their prints and that too is ok with me .

RCP I cannot imagine what its like now to work where you do, in my past I worked at a large wedding lab where volumne was king ,and the colour correctors were highly valued.. you must have a great eye as the responsibility is mind numbing with the number of jobs that must go past you..

We do not use Photoshop as it would be much too slow for the volume we have. We use Kodak DP2 software designed more for speed and high volume. Before that I used a video analyzer for film. I am quite fast and when we were mostly film I could correct 7,000-10,000 images a day (pictures of kids and their teams) during our busy seasons, but when we started getting mostly digital images, that figure dropped to about 2,000-3,000 on a good day. That shows you the increased difficulty in color correcting digital images over film due to the increased inconsistancy I discussed in my other post.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Wow thats a lot of correcting , you must eat a lot of carrots.

We do not use Photoshop as it would be much too slow for the volume we have. We use Kodak DP2 software designed more for speed and high volume. Before that I used a video analyzer for film. I am quite fast and when we were mostly film I could correct 7,000-10,000 images a day (pictures of kids and their teams) during our busy seasons, but when we started getting mostly digital images, that figure dropped to about 2,000-3,000 on a good day. That shows you the increased difficulty in color correcting digital images over film due to the increased inconsistancy I discussed in my other post.

 

[RPC]

Wow thats a lot of correcting , you must eat a lot of carrots.

It's a lot but only necessary during our busy seasons, spring (mostly May) and fall (mostly October). If I had to do it year round I would quickly burn out!

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I used to color correct scans of slides in Photoshop and it got old very fast. It's a little better now with LCD displays. Back in the days of CRT monitors, my eyes would water and burn after a few hours. I used to work in a color print lab using a Kodak PVAC and that wasn't fun either. I admire folks that can do it all day long accurately.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Now you know why I only print my own shots! Running a commercial lab is quite a challenge. Now that everyone with a digital camera thinks they're both a web designer and wedding photogrpher, you see some pretty strange things. I noticed one discount wedding photographer who didn't realize
her flash attachment was routinely hitting the back of someone's head if front of her, even though
she could see the bride and groom thru the viewfinder. With the overhead fluorescent light and that
wierd human scrim she had, even here Photoshop program was probably tempted to suicide. Or maybe young couples are just getting used to green faces nowadays.

 

[wblynch]

... Even when I've trained people to match color with a fairly expensive spectrophotometer, in the end you always do the fine-tuning by eye. If you're smart you'll take a second look the next morning when you're eyes are less fatigued. Same in the darkroom. Does it make a difference. Yes. Maybe the public can't articulate what makes a good color
print, but they often can sense it. Something snaps into place which defines quality.

I love this thread. It is very informative.

Although I am only an amateur hack photographer, I understand this perfectly.

The exact same concept applies to tuning pianos. (something I am much more qualified at). Using electronic measurement tools and computers may show one thing but the ear instantly knows the truth.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You know, based on this thread, I think that I should teach a workshop on color.



PE

 

[Les Sarile]

Where, when and how much?

 

[MattKing]

You know, based on this thread, I think that I should teach a workshop on color.



PE

Will magenta be on the exam ?

 

[lxdude]

Will magenta be on the exam ?

Right on cue! Gee!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Magenta would be covered fully in great detail! I would probably give it at GEH. IDK, is there really interest? I was half kidding.

PE

 

[dehk]

Magenta would be covered fully in great detail! I would probably give it at GEH. IDK, is there really interest? I was half kidding.

PE

I am pretty sure many of us are indeed interested.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Will magenta be on the exam ?

We all know that according to the great two letter troll that magenta is not a color.

My bad

 

[Photo Engineer]

By ANSI definitions, it is. It is well covered in this textbook: http://www.amazon.com/Billmeyer-Saltzmans-Principles-Technology-Edition/dp/047119459X



PE