Higher silver content.

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laser

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Is that why the T-Max B&W films seem to require extra Fixing and washing to get rid of the colour cast that sometimes remains. Also the mention in the data sheets that one should only use fresh fixer?
Dye covers the surface of the grains. When the unexposed/undeveloped grains are dissolved by the fixer the dye is released. If dye is retained in the film it is inversely proportional to the level of exposure. The fresh fixer speeds up the needed time. The retained dye does not influence printing. When considering the need for a good fixer the thought was that the improved grain/speed relationship position and other improvements was well worth additional fix time. Fixing is an easy step. Reactions go to completion. It is unlikely film can be over-fixed.
 

laser

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I think this is a nice example of how myths emerge. There are two parts to it: genesis and perpetuation.

Genesis: someone observe that (1) Agfa papers have a high silver content and (2) Agfa papers don't have expiration dates. They conclude that these characteristics are related. Note that no evidence is offered of this supposed causality, so we can't really assume it holds true.

Perpetuation: someone recounts something they've heard long ago. They may or may not have full recollection of all the relevant details, but the gist of the argument remains (at least, we assume it does...) Whether they themselves actually believe it or not, they offer the information they obtained in a matter-of-fact way: this is what I've heard, make of that what you will. Then, someone else comes along, remembers it and recounts it...etc.

Nobody in this chain is lying, purposefully trying to distort reality or otherwise play tricks on the rest of us. It's for all we know all in good faith, and why shouldn't it?

Before you know it, internet lore has it that silver-rich papers last longer. That silver-rich films have better tonality or somehow 'hold more tones' or whathaveyou.

Before you know it, people like Bob Shanebrook have gotten so scarce that nobody is in a position anymore to separate the wheat from the chaff.

PS: among amateur photographers I know, the story is that the longevity of papers like Portriga derives from the presence of cadmium. Make of that what you will. I don't know and have never looked into the matter, but I have no reason to doubt that cadmium was used in the manufacture of papers. AFAIK that's an established fact. What I do not know is why it was there, and I don't expect that it was included to make the paper last longer. I honestly don't know if it had that (unintended) effect.

Why did photographic manufacturers use CADMIUM, MERCURY etc? Because they worked! Replacing them was a difficult and expensive task. Eventually, it was possible to develop technology that was an adequate substitute for materials that were regulated for environmental reasons. As time passed even better solutions were implemented. Every film improvement/reformulation project included environmental improvements. Most improvements were never announced as a product feature. Announcing improvement would beg the question what other environmental issues are in the films. Complying with environmental laws was a strictly observed requirement. Before film products were announced a signed approval was required from the Legal Department, Health and Safety Department and many other departments.
 

laser

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PE explained that high silver contents on 1950-1960's films were related to poor efficency of silver halides sensitization, as this process improved so the silver content decreased. Only slide film needs higher silver contents.

PE knew what he was talking about. He understood the technology. I miss our frequent conversations.
 

laser

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thank you all for the nice discussion full of information.
There remains only one question which is probably marginal and which perhaps will not have a scientifically accepted answer.
Technically, what could a film with more silver give back to negative film in general terms? (more/less sharpness, more/less soft, etc etc)
Ultimately ... could it generate old-style results?
Many thanks to all !

More silver would:
1. cause more light scatter, less sharpness
2. have higher graininess
3. be more difficult to fix
4. require more gel to maintain "gel to junk ratio. Film would be thicker, softer, less sharp.

and some other characteristics.
 

koraks

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Why did photographic manufacturers use CADMIUM, MERCURY etc? Because they worked!

Evidently. But for what purpose? The argument I heard, and never verified in any way, was that the cadmium deliberately or by accident prolonged the product's life. Was this in fact the case? Out of all people in this thread, you're in the best position to say something about this.

You see, I wouldn't be surprised if it was there for a totally other reason, just like certain rare earths still play a role in sensitization in today's emulsions, because they apparently play a crucial role in how the silver-halide lattice creates developable sites.
 

laser

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If they even had high silver content...

I mean, manufacturer #2 of the western-world of course had a huge silver consumption, the same time a lot of R&D resources.
That such a manufacturer would be behind their competitors (as "high silver-content" in this context means just this) and loosing money by this, would be surprising.
Well, one then could argue that they lost money on an other activity, just to stay in that market and to feed the sale of their consumables, a activity thus cross-financed. But would then they willingly loose money on their main, consumables market?

You had it about myths. Well, part of the coming into life of a myth is unwillingness to question ideas. That questioning not necessarily then would yield truth, but at least would not let myths emerge.

The reality is that many business models do not require all products made by a single manufacturer to have equal profitability. Also, the unit manufacturing cost (UMC) of similar products are not the same for all manufacturers. There is a delicate balance among UMC, margin, product technology (R&D, performance and quality), selling price, volume, and share of market.
 

xkaes

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Trust, but verify.

Test it yourself -- whatever that IT is -- or blindly believe whatever you are told.
 

flavio81

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I managed the design and manufacturing of T-MAX Films

Thanks for advancing film emulsions 100 years into the future, despite what the flat-earthers believe. TMax and all flat-aspect-ratio-grain B&W films are great!
 

runswithsizzers

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thank you all for the nice discussion full of information.
There remains only one question which is probably marginal and which perhaps will not have a scientifically accepted answer.
Technically, what could a film with more silver give back to negative film in general terms? (more/less sharpness, more/less soft, etc etc)
Ultimately ... could it generate old-style results?
Many thanks to all !

For a while, Adox sold an "increased silver content film" they called Silvermax. Here is what they claimed in the <data sheet> for that film:
"SILVERMAX has an increased silver-content compared to regular negative films.
This enables him to built up a DMAX of >3,0 if reversal developed or reproduces up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer if developed to a negative.
This way SILVERMAX catches it all for you: brightest highlights and deepest shaddows.
"

I can understand how increased silver content might result in a higher D-max - and how that might be a benefit if reversal processed and projected as a positive transparency.

But I never did understand the part about "reproduces up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer"? What exatly are these "zones" and how are they measured? How many zones can other films reproduce? What is it about the dedicated Silvermax developer that allows it (and only it) to unlock the full 14 zones? It would take someone smarter than I am to explain it all.

I did shoot a roll of Silvermax film which I processed as negatives in the dedicated Silvermax developer. Not that you can tell much about a film by looking at digitized negatives - but my results are online <here> if anyone cares to see them.
 

koraks

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I can understand how increased silver content might result in a higher D-max - and how that might be a benefit if reversal processed and projected as a positive transparency.

To an extent, yes. You could debate how much DMAX you need exactly in a slide film.
I've witnessed such a debate a few years ago on LFPF I think, you should be able to find it. Or perhaps it was here, I don't recall. It didn't end in a very pretty way. The results were inconclusive, in any case.

What is it about the dedicated Silvermax developer that allows it (and only it) to unlock the full 14 zones? It would take someone smarter than I am to explain it all.

Well, I can't, that's for sure, so intelligence-wise, we're in the same boat!
 

flavio81

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But I never did understand the part about "reproduces up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer"? What exatly are these "zones" and how are they measured? How many zones can other films reproduce? What is it about the dedicated Silvermax developer that allows it (and only it) to unlock the full 14 zones? It would take someone smarter than I am to explain it all.

Zones = Check out the Ansel Adams Zone system.

The "dedicated silvermax developer" probably is tailored to the emulsion in a way that it gives good shadow detail and it's also able to fully develop the darkest areas. This is my guess. Probably other developers can do the same, but maybe the most common developers (D76, Rodinal) do not, thus the encouragement to use Silvermax.

The "Silvermax" film, as many Adox films, was made with reversal processing in mind. If you're going to project your slides, then it makes sense to have high contrast and a wide density range.

Does this requires 'increased silver content', i don't really know. Of course it sounds good for marketing your film. "SILVERMAX" sounds far fancier than "CHS".
 

flavio81

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To an extent, yes. You could debate how much DMAX you need exactly in a slide film.
I've witnessed such a debate a few years ago on LFPF I think, you should be able to find it. Or perhaps it was here, I don't recall. It didn't end in a very pretty way. The results were inconclusive, in any case.

I think it was here, and yes, it was such a flame war...
 

runswithsizzers

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Zones = Check out the Ansel Adams Zone system.

The "dedicated silvermax developer" probably is tailored to the emulsion in a way that it gives good shadow detail and it's also able to fully develop the darkest areas. This is my guess. Probably other developers can do the same, but maybe the most common developers (D76, Rodinal) do not, thus the encouragement to use Silvermax.

The "Silvermax" film, as many Adox films, was made with reversal processing in mind. If you're going to project your slides, then it makes sense to have high contrast and a wide density range.

Does this requires 'increased silver content', i don't really know. Of course it sounds good for marketing your film. "SILVERMAX" sounds far fancier than "CHS".

Yeah, right after I posted, I realized the reference to "zones" was probably to the famous Zone System. Sometimes, when comtemplating the obscure, it is easy for me to miss the obvious. :smile:
 

koraks

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Zones = Check out the Ansel Adams Zone system.

That couldn't be it because that scale tops out at X. There's nothing whiter on paper than paper white, and nothing blacker than dmax. There are only 10 zones in Adams' system...

Sometimes, when comtemplating the obscure, it is easy for me to miss the obvious

No, it's not that obvious at all! Given the definition of zones in Adams' system, zone XIV is a non-existent entity. It's similar to a number greater than infinite in mathematics; it lacks a definition and has no practical relevance. Hence, Adox' mentioning of 14 zones is very odd indeed. The only meaningful interpretation I could give is that the film was capable of capturing a 14-stop scene brightness range. By calling this "zones", they only made things confusing and unnecessarily obscure.
 

faberryman

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The way you get 14 zones is you take the 10 zones and make them smaller.
 

runswithsizzers

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My knowledge of the Zone System is somewhere slightly below rudimentary, so I had to check a textbook for the precise definition. Per "Beyond Basic Photography - a Technical Manual" by Henry Horenstein, "The Zone System uses a gray scale representing ten possible zones, or tonal values, ranging from the darkest possible black to the brightest white that can be reproduced in a print." (emphasis mine)

So as others have already mentioned, Adox's claim does not make sense in the context of Adams' Zone System.
 

miha

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Why would Henning Serger be a candidate for such a question?
 

MattKing

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The 14 zones is a "Spinal Tap" approach to describing film response.:whistling:
 

runswithsizzers

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[...] The only meaningful interpretation I could give is that the film was capable of capturing a 14-stop scene brightness range. By calling this "zones", they only made things confusing and unnecessarily obscure.
Reading the data sheet, I thought I saw several instances where someone seemed to be struggling with the German-to-English translation.

I think you are probably correct about inferring Adox's intended meaning. The next question that comes to my mind is, What would be an application where recording a 14-stop range on the negative would be a practical benefit?
 

koraks

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What would be an application where recording a 14-stop range on the negative would be a practical benefit?

You tell me...I honestly don't know and if I'm very honest about it, I think that the value of the datasheet/sales ad for this product relies heavily on the benevolence of the reader. If you happen to really like Adox and/or this particular product, I think the document is a great support for your preference. If you happen to be quite critical of the added value of the product, I suppose it gives all the ammunition you need to declare it utterly useless. I haven't tried it, so I can't comment...

@MattKing that one is pure gold right there, I'd love to watch the whole thing again once upon a time :smile:
 

runswithsizzers

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You tell me...I honestly don't know and if I'm very honest about it, I think that the value of the datasheet/sales ad for this product relies heavily on the benevolence of the reader. If you happen to really like Adox and/or this particular product, I think the document is a great support for your preference. If you happen to be quite critical of the added value of the product, I suppose it gives all the ammunition you need to declare it utterly useless. I haven't tried it, so I can't comment...
[...]
Sorry, I was not trying to put you on the spot for an answer. I should have directed my question to the forum in general.

I did try Silvermax (only 1 roll), and I think I liked it. I was sorry to see it discontinued - not so much because of the film's quality when processed as a negative, but because I have hopes of doing d.i.y. reversal processing one day.

It is interesting to note that another Adox film which was promoted as being designed specifically for reversal processing - Adox Scala 160 - is also claimed to have "an increased silver content." But I have tried enough other b&w films processed as positives to be convinced that extra silver is not a requirement to get good b&w slides.
 
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laser

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One interpretation of 14 zones may be a 14-stop scene range or 4.2 Log E. That is a range of 16K:1. If printed on glossy paper the compression has to take it to a range of 2.3
Oh, yes it can. Ask a 9-year old who got called to dinner when the film was in the fix and didn't remember it till the next day.

Though not recommended I doubt if it caused any problems after a day. Certainly the silver-hypo complexes were in a soluble form so they will easily wash out. After a few days there may be some damage to the silver as it dissolves in the hypo. Your point is well taken.
 
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