High Precision Hand Coating Blades

[df cardwell]

This is inspiring ... and mind boggling.

As they used to say, "I will follow your career with interest !"

.

 

[resummerfield]

The more I read this thread, the more I believe in PE and what he can accomplish. I'm very interested, in both the blades and the workshop.

 

[Mick Fagan]

As a person who spends lots of time in a darkroom and likes to fiddle with all things photographic, I find this really interesting.

As a panoramic printer, I think this opens up the possibility of coating long thin strips of paper for printing!

It's a pity I live in the wrong part of the world for hands on looking, touching, talking, etc., but with this forum I can follow and await the final outcome with the hope, that maybe something I can use, will eventually be available.

Mick.

 

[mikewhi]

Hi PE:

Any more thoughts on some kits? Do you think it's a good idea? Lynn Radeka does a real nice job of it. You can get the kit and then go down to LA for a workshop. Lynn also offers private classes at his place for $50\hr to learn how to mask. You might think of offering that - oh, wait, you live in Rochester. How the heck is anyone going to find you?

Anyway, you could try finding a place in the middle somewhere that has facilities and we could fly in and have a workshop. How about Anderson Ranch - are they still around? Is Formulary still an option?

-Mike

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

If you wanted to do a workshop down in New York City, I'd bet the CFAAHP would accommodate you. Their website is at www.cfaahp.org.

 

[Photo Engineer]

David, I never thought of that for several reasons.

First, silver halide is hardly 'alternative', secondly it is hardly 'historic' and thirdly as a certified 'blowhard' I wouldn't quite know how to approach them.

Thanks for the suggestion. You may be able to do something about at least one of those items.

~insert impish grin here~

I am in touch with the Formulary. Lynn is going to call me back tomorrow with suggestions regarding dates, but their schedule is just about full already. That is one busy place. The food is outstanding as are the facilities, so it is no wonder. The scenery is just as good as the food and the physical setup.

More for Scooter which I forgot to add above. I did test for uniformity by flashing sheets to dmax and in between and developing to see if there were density fluctuations, and I did it with 3 different blade designs. The current one survived all of the flash tests. I don't have an x-ray fluorescence spectrophotometer to do the analyses at home and for some reason EK has shown a total lack of interest in doing them for me. ~another impish grin here~ So, the flash tests will have to do for now and they look darn good.

Your smileys just don't have enough emotion for me.

Thanks for all of the positive comment and for the private notes on APUG and via e-mail. I'm trying to do something positive with the knowledge of 30+ years developing photo products. I really do hope it pans out, for all of you.

PE

 

[Kerik]

First, silver halide is hardly 'alternative', secondly it is hardly 'historic' and thirdly as a certified 'blowhard' I wouldn't quite know how to approach them.

PE, silver halide is rapidly approaching the alternative stage, and may all too soon be historic. I am teaching a workshop at CFAAHP in a couple of weeks, and I will clue them in on what your up to. That's related to my interest in visiting you when I'm in Rochester.

 

[Rick]

P.E.
I'd like to go on record as being very interested in this tool for doing Albumin coating of paper.
First, I trust this would work with Albumin coating?
Like everyone else who isn't able to see a pic of this tool, let alone seeing it in action, I too am naturally a little inquisitive, and do have some questions regarding it's design and use. If it comes to be that it is indeed everything it's said to be, which is accurate in application and labor saving, and the price is affordable, then I think it will be to paper what PB & J is to sliced bread!
A question that comes to mind is concerning the size of blade needed. I'm going to stick my neck out here for a moment by saying that most printers probably make prints in 8 x 10 size or larger. So having a blade 4 inches in width would work fine for 4 inch wide paper. It does seem that it would require multiple swipes on paper whose width exceeds that of the blade. Wouldn't this leave a ridge, gap, or a heavy material overlap where the swipes meet?

Somewhere in this list of replies to your initial question, a tentative price figure of $300 came up as compared to an alternative tool at $1200, which was deemed absurd! So in going to your blade, would one be required to buy a blade for each, 5x7, 8x10, and 11x14 paper widths, or be committed to using only one blade for one size of paper? This is assuming that there is merit to the "one swipe to cover " application idea. The total has now reached $900 for multiple blades if one uses different widths of paper.
Maybe this doesn't fit into the $1200 absurd category, but it does fall under "steep" in my budget plan should I need more than one size blade!

Now as for the instruction in "use of" video, that sounds like a great idea. It was even mentioned that it could even be a short video on the web, due to the stated confidence and ease in using this tool, and it's repeatability of quality results.
It seems I'm detecting the idea that after a few hours practice with this tool, one could be outputting acceptable results? Smelling more like PB & J all the time!

It has been mentioned that a possible workshop be developed around learning to use this blade.
Yet if it is indeed that "user friendly", I'd hope it wouldn't take a week to learn to master just its use. That would imply a bit more complication. What else do you envision being taught surrounding the blade use that would fill a weeklong workshop at PF with a cost of $500-$650 and expenses?

I think you're on to a great idea that could benefit the whole alt. process group. I hope you find the number of replies of interest to your liking so that we don't have to come crawling to your door in order to get one of these tools! LOL Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Rick, the blades must be about 1/4" wider than the size of the paper you wish to coat.

If you get one 8" (actually 8.25" opening and 9" width total with edges, this will coat 8.25" wide by up to 20" long (if you have that great a reach with your arms). This will allow you 2 8x10 prints or 8 4x5 prints from a sheet of paper with only one blade.

And, BTW the $1200 blade I priced out was 4" wide. I would have had to buy 3 of them in the 3 sizes at increasing prices (~$3000 for their 8" blade IIRC - something really absurd).

I am working on an 11.25" blade for 11x14 prints as well. I'll keep you posted.

So, you have valid points but I can counter them by useful money saving work arounds. I prefer the 4" blades for experimental purposes, as it saves me on silver. Thats all.

Yes, there is a learning curve. Yes, you waste a lot at the start. If you work in the light with gelatin only, you waste gelatin and food colorings and paper, and that is about it. After that, using silver, it becomes expensive.

I am working on a kit of chemicals, equipment, and formulas.

The preliminary outline of the course would teach the following:

1. How to make a graded contact printing paper (grades 1, 2 and 3)

2. How to make a grade 2 enlarging paper

3. How to make a simple ISO 25 ortho sensitive emulsion and a paper negative.

4. How to convert #3 to a film negative formula.

All of this includes stepwise instructions on making up the melts, doctoring them, adding dopants, hardners and surfactants, and full instruction in coating them using either brushes or coating blades.

Remember, I can get acceptable results with a paintbrush, it just is not good enough for me quality wise. The book "Silver Gelatin" shows some outstanding work done with brushes, both foam and bristle. The blades are there to offer near production quality coatings. Actually, this 'doctor blade' method was one of the early methods used in production at Kodak and Agfa to produce B&W film and paper. It was merely automated rather than done by hand. I have taken it a step back to the hand crafting days based on methods I learned at EK.

No one will ever have to 'crawl' for one of these. I only hope I can recoup the investment I've made in making about 4 sets of hand made prototypes, and all of the silver used in testing them and the formulas. I would rather be rich in friends than in money.

PE

 

[jimgalli]

PE, forgive me if this was already asked / covered. Have you tried a simple 'puddle pusher' like Bostick & Sullivan sells for spreading pt/pd on a paper? Just curious.

 

[Photo Engineer]

PE, forgive me if this was already asked / covered. Have you tried a simple 'puddle pusher' like Bostick & Sullivan sells for spreading pt/pd on a paper? Just curious.

Jim, yes I have and they do not work reliably enough for making silver halide coatings. I have two of them.

I have wrapped the PP with Scotch Tape and coated with it. That gives about a 2 mil gap BTW, but it does not have good quality at all on paper due to swell caused by pushing the puddle ahead of the blade causing buckling.

It is fair with film but has an unreliable gap. Solution use is too great also due to losses out the sides and it makes a real mess with gelatin.

PE

 

[Rick]

P.E.
Thank you for your reply. I notice you speak of using this system with Silver Gelatin components.
I did ask a previous question as to if the system would work with an Albumin medium. Is there a difference in viscosity between the two materials that would make a difference in using the tool for Albumin?
As for size, it pretty much sounds as though one's tool selection is going to be based on the size of paper one plans to standardize on using. Kind of like a matched set?
Your class outline does sound interesting, and at least for me, very much approaching rocket science!
By the sounds of your post, I think you're implying that the learning curve is going to be longer than a weeks worth of sessions in the darkroom!
Well P.E., I can say that I'm still interested and perhaps I should wait until the jury returns after some use from different skill level folks.
From my standpoint, I'd be looking at a $500-$600 workshop plus expenses, another $400+ (this figure just as a starting point for conversation) amount for a tool limited in size usage. So all told, I'd be looking at an outlay of roughly a minimum of $1000 or better to be able to hold a tool in my hand that I've not accomplished superior use of, and which requires more trial and error expense to master. Could be a high frustration factor involved here too!
Well you've certainly given us all more information, and I myself certainly appreciate it. I will continue to watch this topic to keep up with your developments.
Regards,
Rick

 

[Aggie]

Ya know Jim, Dave and I are on the way to Montana if you swing down to Vegas first. We could all car pool, and not be bothered if someone wants to stop to take a picture.

Lets see:
Birthday present - one blade, Christmas present second blade, Valentines Day - third blades, Mothers day I could get the rest. "Sigh" I don't have to resort to bribery to do this.

PE ever consider a full plate size blade? 6 1/2 x 8 1/2

 

[Photo Engineer]

I did ask a previous question as to if the system would work with an Albumin medium. Is there a difference in viscosity between the two materials that would make a difference in using the tool for Albumin?

As for size, it pretty much sounds as though one's tool selection is going to be based on the size of paper one plans to standardize on using. Kind of like a matched set?

Your class outline does sound interesting, and at least for me, very much approaching rocket science!

By the sounds of your post, I think you're implying that the learning curve is going to be longer than a weeks worth of sessions in the darkroom!

Rick, sorry, I didn't give a full answer.

Here they are for each paragraph:

The blades work with anything that has viscosity. Therefore any polymer or albumen etc. will work, as long as you give it sufficient time to rest after coating to just set up a tad before moving. This is usually on the order of just 10 - 30 seconds but can be as high as a minute with very low viscosity, dilute gels and polymers. I have never used this for albumen though, so I cannot speak either way, but I have used it for lots of polymers at EK and I've even coated from solvents under a hood. You don't need to just use water if you have the right facilities.

The tool size is based on what size(s) you wish to coat. I would get one the maxiumum size for my work. IDK yet. Give me time. I may change that for the purposes of yield. If you do 4x5 and 8x10, you might get a better yield from 2 blades rather than one larger blade and cutting down the 8x10s. I have to get the yield up on the 8x10s and to do that I need the new redesigned end cap and blade set. Give me a few weeks to test things out at the larger sizes. Also, I don't even have the 11.25" blade yet.

I guarantee that the class will not be rocket science, This will be dump and stir for the darkroom hobbyist. I want to make this as painless as possible and as non-toxic as possible (there will be a few exotic chemicals that no one has ever heard of before (well, no one normal that is - just us abnormal photo engineering types), but nothing like mercury or lead).

The learning curve is not weeks or months, more like days or hours depending. I just don't want people going into the lab and wasting silver. That is just too expensive. I want it to be simple and easy time after time, once you learn the routine. I myself had not done any in years having turned into a desk jockey in my last years at EK, but going back to this was a simple job once I had the right blades. Once I had them, I was turning out 90%+ yield of 4x5s in one night after one afternoon in the light practicing.

Here is a simple test that anyone can perform to test their coating quality for a viscous system:

Dissolve 10 grams of photo grade hard gelatin (Bloom Index 175 or higher) in 84 grams of water at 40 deg C and heat until it becomes free of lumps. Add 2 grams of Red, 2 grams of Blue and 2 grams of Green food color and stir until mixed. Add to this, 6 drops of Kodak Photo-Flo 200 (see below). Use this to paint, pour, puddle push, or otherwise coat your paper, film, plate or whatnot. If you want to harden this, add 20 drops of 10% glyoxal.

You should get an even coating possibly with some small craters caused by the interaction of the food dye with the surfactant (called repellancies and mentioned in another thread on coating sulfonic acid couplers). I have not tweaked the surfactant yet for this test, but it will show up gross unevenness and coating marks. It is a measure of your coating technique.

This test makes a good starting point for judging your coatings for quality. If you get too many coating streaks or repellancies, there is either too much or too little Photo-Flo. Therefore, I suggest that you start at zero with the PF and add it dropwise with stirring and testing the coating mix above to get to the sweet spot. It differes with food dye and with batch of gelatin and with Bloom Index. The value above is an approximate mid-point for my current conditions. This uses a 'new improved' viscous food coloring. My previous batch of food colors was liquid and didn't use the same balance of surfactant. It also coated better.

This test works with any polymer or albumen when coated from water. I don't know how well it works as far as hardening is concerned except with gelatin.

Reflection or transmission density measurements will give you an estimate of uniformity, or just the plain Mark I human eyeball test will do well with this.

The goal is to have the exact same density from side to side and end to end of the sheet with no streaks, scratches or lumps. The repellancies (little round craters) don't count.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, to all who responded. I have an answer from the Formulary.

The workshop is scheduled to begin Sunday, June 18th at the Photographer's Formulary in Condon Montana. The tentative workshop outline is as posted above, and we will try to have kits including coating blades for all interested parties. We will include any 'exotic' chemicals, papers for coating and all associated equipment such as stainless steel beakers. (Yes, you have to make and store an emulsion in a light tight container, you didn't think you could store it in the fridge in a glass beaker did you?)

First come, first served. However, the following week is still open on their schedule and if too many register up front early enough before the following week is confirmed with another course, Bud has agreed to consider the possibility of running two sessions back to back rather than turn anyone away.

I am on my way to the machine shop to begin redesign of the larger blades (8.25" and 14.25") and to order the first film coating blade of my design. I am also ordering the first blades for those who have already placed firm orders regardless of price.

Gee, some of you are really anxious, but then the people who did this have already seen the blades and the resultant prints.

I am gratified and thank all of you for your support.

PE

 

[magic823]

I'll send an email to Lynn tonight and sign up.

I need to talk with her anyway about workshops she wants me to teach (Photoshop CS2, A Process A Day, and possibly a sensitometry workshop).

Steve