Help with repair of Nikon F2

[mitchamtuell]

The F2 shutter curtains are titanium foil only, no rubber, no silk, and no timing solenoids; it's purely mechanical.
Sover Wong charges what he does because the F2 is a very complex camera, it consists of over 1,500 parts. Very poor choice to "learn" on, particularly when one has no grounding in the basics of working on smallish mechanisms.

Ah, you're totally right. At first I thought the foil was just a coating, but now I see the silk/rubber parts are just thin strips to smooth the sliding, not a full sheet acting as a curtain. Good thing I don't have to know all 1,500 parts!

Maybe use the Isoproponal rather than lighter fluid as per the other posters recommendations. I am (was) a builder carpenter so am no way in a position to give accurate advice on your issues. My perception of how these cameras work is this. The underneath curtain adjusters only adjust tension not speed. The sectional diagrams seem to show that the curtain speed Is controlled inside the actual main closing curtain tube and these are adjusted by the cams under the speed dial area. There are two small adjuster screws with lock screws around them that must be used to adjust the higher speeds. I wouldn't fiddle with these without hooking the camera up to a proper shutter timer. The slow speeds of 1 to 1/8th speeds are controlled by the slow speed mechanism. All this does is put pressure on the cam under the main shutter assembly. It is just metal to metal friction that holds the closing curtain till the cogs in the slow speed assembly spin out and release it. If there is oil and grease on that underneath cam then the slow speed mechanism will not be able to hold the curtain open. Speeds above that are controlled within the main tube and my guess is these may act with some sort of friction or gearing. Given the poor state of your camera and the amount of gunk in other areas leads me to think that there is more gunk under the speed dial area and maybe in the main shutter tube gearing. At your higher speeds the camera may be releasing the opening curtain too slowly, or it is jamming a bit and so the closing curtain is catching up to it meaning no light gets through. Or the gearing in the closing shutter tube is not holding back the closing curtain so they are both releasing at the same time.

Given the buy price maybe tackle the top end under the speed dial and pull the whole shutter assembly out for thorough cleaning. It's probably not worth the angst though. Good luck and don't take my advice as I'm not a camera technician. Hope some other members can help you.
Robin.

Thanks for the great info. Don't sell yourself short - I'm convinced the smartest people in the world are all carpenters and machinists. Your thought on the friction-dependent mechanisms is now my top theory on what's happening, and is also the first time anyone has actually suggested why we only oil sparingly.

I only used Radio Shack as the post was written for the average Do It Yourselfer that had little or no electronic experience.
I made more than 1 tester. Testing fps from 2x3 to 5x7 I made a tester of two photo diodes on small blocks that can be attached to larger boards that fit the film holder opening of the camera. I measure starting time and finishing time as well as the travel time across the frame. All this tells the consistency of the shutter across all speeds.
For 35mm I would use 2 sensors that are movable so that I could measure start, middle, and ending times. horizontal travel 36mm would be something like 5mm, 18mm, and 31mm points for the center of the sensor. Most light sensitive LED's available have a 10° angle of view and are sensitive to near infrared through infrared. A red filter material equivalent to a #25 wratten allows for the use of a incandescent or CFL light source and should work with white led light source.

Now I think you are making some Assumptions, 1. both curtains have the same drag coefficient and 2. require the same tension to travel across the frame and 3. the timing has never been adjusted.
Build a tester and get both curtains traveling across the frame at the same rate at all points across the frame then concern yourself with speed timing.

Your explanation of the curtains needing to travel at the same speed makes a lot of sense - I think I understand a little better now. I'm going to look into building a simple testing rig. I thought to try my iPhone's slo-mo camera, but 240 fps isn't quite enough to properly tell. More like 500-1000 fps might do it.

 

[BMbikerider]

Anyone who does not have the correct Nikon service sheets, or the Nikon training in the service/repair of a Nikon F2 is very much like someone who is an engineer working on 30 litre diesel engines, then asked to repair a Rolex watch. If you actually read his website, the Sover Wong reports on the nightmares of complete bodge-ups by people who are actually supposed to be camera technicians you would have walked away and left it alone.

Anyone building a 'tester' without the knowledge of how a F2 shutter works and how it is adjusted correctly would be better of turning their talents to gardening. This is proven by suggestions and 'advice' that the shutter is rubber covered material similar to conventional horizontal focal plane shutters. They have little apparent grasp of how complex an operation it is. The F2 is possibly (almost certainly) the finest mechanical 35mm SLR, but only if it is not messed around with by amateurs!

End of sermon.

(The shutter of the Minolta XM/XK is very similar to the Nikon F2, but controlled electronically whereas the F2 is pure 100% mechanical.)

 

[Robin Guymer]

Ouch! That hurt didn't it Mitcham? But don't worry mate, I'm sure you've got a few supporters out there who understand the meaning and satisfaction of a good project. Ten dollar camera that was probably destined for landfill, well good on ya for rescuing it and having the guts to have a go and put it out there on social media for the inevitable criticism. I'm still picking the knives out of my neck for destroying a few Sony Nex before I finally got it to work as a digital back on a Nikon FE. So keep having a crack at it and I look forward to further updates on your progress.
Robin.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Ah, you're totally right. At first I thought the foil was just a coating, but now I see the silk/rubber parts are just thin strips to smooth the sliding, not a full sheet acting as a curtain. Good thing I don't have to know all 1,500 parts!



Thanks for the great info. Don't sell yourself short - I'm convinced the smartest people in the world are all carpenters and machinists. Your thought on the friction-dependent mechanisms is now my top theory on what's happening, and is also the first time anyone has actually suggested why we only oil sparingly.



Your explanation of the curtains needing to travel at the same speed makes a lot of sense - I think I understand a little better now. I'm going to look into building a simple testing rig. I thought to try my iPhone's slo-mo camera, but 240 fps isn't quite enough to properly tell. More like 500-1000 fps might do it.

Several points to be made.
1) By overtightening the tension adjustment you have likely damaged that spring (first curtain).
2) The second curtain is held by a latch, which is released by a cam which is in turn set by the shutter speed dial. This latch is held in engagement by it's geometry, not "metal to metal friction" and requires to be lubricated.
3) The curtain travel speed requires a special type of timer, with two photodiodes to measure travel speed. Nikon specifies the make & model of timer, your chances of building such a timer of sufficient accuracy are very very small. Posssibly a 10,000 plus fps video camera might get you in the ballpark, but you need to measure with an accuracy of around 10 microseconds, so you need better than "ballpark"
4) Lubrication - Moebius clock and watch lubricants are suitable, you need special application tools as well. Two or three different grades of oil and two grades of very light grease, plus a molybdenum carrying EP lubricant will be necessary. Since you have contaminated the camera with stuff from the hardware store, it will need to be compltely disassembled and ultrasonically cleaned to remove all contaminants, as well as the dirt you have distributed throughout the camera by flushing it with lighter fluid.
5) This entire thread is a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Anyone who does not have the correct Nikon service sheets, or the Nikon training in the service/repair of a Nikon F2 is very much like someone who is an engineer working on 30 litre diesel engines, then asked to repair a Rolex watch. If you actually read his website, the Sover Wong reports on the nightmares of complete bodge-ups by people who are actually supposed to be camera technicians you would have walked away and left it alone.

Anyone building a 'tester' without the knowledge of how a F2 shutter works and how it is adjusted correctly would be better of turning their talents to gardening. This is proven by suggestions and 'advice' that the shutter is rubber covered material similar to conventional horizontal focal plane shutters. They have little apparent grasp of how complex an operation it is. The F2 is possibly (almost certainly) the finest mechanical 35mm SLR, but only if it is not messed around with by amateurs!

End of sermon.

(The shutter of the Minolta XM/XK is very similar to the Nikon F2, but controlled electronically whereas the F2 is pure 100% mechanical.)

Point number 6) ; What he ^^ said.
There is an infinite number of ways to ruin something and most of them are available on the internet.

 

[shutterfinger]

Anyone building a 'tester' without the knowledge of how a F2 shutter works and how it is adjusted correctly would be better of turning their talents to gardening. This is proven by suggestions and 'advice' that the shutter is rubber covered material similar to conventional horizontal focal plane shutters. They have little apparent grasp of how complex an operation it is. The F2 is possibly (almost certainly) the finest mechanical 35mm SLR, but only if it is not messed around with by amateurs!

One does not need to know the materials used in every camera made to know the correct servicing techniques necessary to repair an unfamiliar camera.

3) The curtain travel speed requires a special type of timer, with two photodiodes to measure travel speed. Nikon specifies the make & model of timer, your chances of building such a timer of sufficient accuracy are very very small. Posssibly a 10,000 plus fps video camera might get you in the ballpark, but you need to measure with an accuracy of around 10 microseconds, so you need better than "ballpark"

I mount the photo diodes in foam core with a #29 drill hole on the front for a more precise reading. I suggested the 3 position setup so the speed from start to center of the frame and center of frame to to end of frame times can be measured and compared.
Audacity recording program's time line can be expanded to easily fit Nikon's requirements for curtain speed measurement.

You don't need factory training to fix a camera however complex it may be but the get it going technique that served great grandpa well won't work for great grandson. Trying to distinguish which is which on the internet without any training or experience is difficult.

 

[Hubregt Visser]

Ah, you're totally right. At first I thought the foil was just a coating, but now I see the silk/rubber parts are just thin strips to smooth the sliding, not a full sheet acting as a curtain. Good thing I don't have to know all 1,500 parts!



Thanks for the great info. Don't sell yourself short - I'm convinced the smartest people in the world are all carpenters and machinists. Your thought on the friction-dependent mechanisms is now my top theory on what's happening, and is also the first time anyone has actually suggested why we only oil sparingly.



Your explanation of the curtains needing to travel at the same speed makes a lot of sense - I think I understand a little better now. I'm going to look into building a simple testing rig. I thought to try my iPhone's slo-mo camera, but 240 fps isn't quite enough to properly tell. More like 500-1000 fps might do it.

Hi Mitcham,

I'm following this thread with much interest two years after date. I really like how you report your progress and I admire how you dived into the F2 and how you deal with all the negativity. Just wondering if you did get the F2 back in functioning order?

Best,

Hubegt

 

[Nikon 2]

What's my best option for servicing a Nikon F2 with a corroded advance lever switch and shutter springs adjustments...?

 

[BradS]

What's my best option for servicing a Nikon F2 with a corroded advance lever switch and shutter springs adjustments...?

send it to a trained professional repair technician.

 

[Nikon 2]

send it to a trained professional repair technician.

Any suggestions…?