Help with repair of Nikon F2

[mitchamtuell]

A few months ago I went to check out a lot of old camera stuff on a local site and found a Nikon F2 with a Nikkor 105mm f2.5 lens on the front. Jackpot, right? Well the lens was full of mold and the camera was completely non-functional and in bad cosmetic condition. The guy didn't care at all and gave em to me for $20 so I figured I'd take them on as repair projects, since they're both super great pieces of equipment when in good condition. I think I've got the lens cleaned up and ready to use, but I've been having some trouble with the camera so I figured I'd ask around here.

Unfortunately there aren't a ton of great resources online for F2 repair. The best I've found is Robin Guymer's great post on this forum. I also found the service manual, which has been less helpful than I had hoped. Before you ask, yes I am aware of Sover Wong. If cost was no issue I'd send it to him, but I'm not really willing to put more money into the camera, and I'm sure I could buy a working one for less than his fee + shipping considering how much work this one needs. Plus I just love fixing things and am excited to learn!

Here are some pictures:


The camera started out entirely jammed. Shutter release wouldn't press and the cocking lever wouldn't move. Got it apart and managed to trigger the shutter by pressing a level on the bottom. Then none of the shutter speeds worked. I lubricated both shutter mechanisms very generously with 3-in-1 and Tri-flow. I've read that typically you use just tiny amounts of sewing machine oil, but I didn't have that and also this stuff was very stuck and rusty. I moved around the components to let oil in and scraped off rust where I saw it. At this point the shutter fired at all speeds, but at the higher speeds the curtain never actually let light in, so I adjusted the curtain tension. I'm pretty sure it's the front curtain tension - it's the one on the upper left in the picture of the bottom of the camera, the one without the green thread lock. After adjusting it every speed appeared to actually work! Through lubrication and working parts around I also got the self timer to work.

I put the front panel and mirror box back on the camera and it... kinda works. It's weird. The shutter button only fires the camera sometimes, and only then when I press it very hard and forcefully. It also seems that the slow speed are much more strained - without the front and mirror they fire easily and for approximately their nominal times, but with it they struggle to complete their cycle (and sometimes fail to entirely), especially at 1 second. When it does fire, the mirror flips correctly and the curtain opens and closes (of course I have no idea about the timing). I've noticed that using the mirror lock-up makes the shutter fire much more consistently and easily, making me think that the tension of the mirror spring has something to do with it. At this point I take it back apart and decide to try adjusting the other curtain tension. I try tensioning and loosening different amounts of each curtain and don't really make any progress. This is pretty much where I'm at now.

What do y'all think? I'm assuming plenty of you here have worked on F2s before. Please feel free to ask for more information or pictures!

Also, assuming everything else works fine, how do I go about setting the shutter speeds? I'm planning to build a simple phototransistor speed tester, but I don't really know the process to use to actually set them.

Thanks!

 

[shutterfinger]

First do not use 3 in 1 oil in cameras. It dries out in 2 to 3 months and leaves a sticky residue.
2nd. factory repair manuals are numbered in disassembly order or assembly order. Only adjustments that are necessary are listed, the rest the factory certified technician knows.
3rd. place rusted parts in cider vinegar for 15 to 30 minutes, remove and flush with water, dry and coat with oil or similar to prevent rust from forming. Untreated parts will start to rust within 30 minutes.
4th. electrical contacts should be bright and shinny not satin or dull. Polish with metal polish as needed.
Go to your local auto parts store, home depot and get a can or two of CRC QD Electronic Contact Cleaner https://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-11-oz-QD-Electronic-Cleaner-05103/205021975
Flush out all the dried up lubrication and 3 in 1 oil and start over with a trace of TriFlow or white lithium grease. I switched to Finish Line FETT Grease, similar to white lithium but with teflon, available at bike shops ans Amazon.

http://arcticwolfs.net/ the F2 is in the SLR column.
I would have offered the seller $10 for it.

 

[mitchamtuell]

First do not use 3 in 1 oil in cameras. It dries out in 2 to 3 months and leaves a sticky residue.
2nd. factory repair manuals are numbered in disassembly order or assembly order. Only adjustments that are necessary are listed, the rest the factory certified technician knows.
3rd. place rusted parts in cider vinegar for 15 to 30 minutes, remove and flush with water, dry and coat with oil or similar to prevent rust from forming. Untreated parts will start to rust within 30 minutes.
4th. electrical contacts should be bright and shinny not satin or dull. Polish with metal polish as needed.
Go to your local auto parts store, home depot and get a can or two of CRC QD Electronic Contact Cleaner https://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-11-oz-QD-Electronic-Cleaner-05103/205021975
Flush out all the dried up lubrication and 3 in 1 oil and start over with a trace of TriFlow or white lithium grease. I switched to Finish Line FETT Grease, similar to white lithium but with teflon, available at bike shops ans Amazon.

http://arcticwolfs.net/ the F2 is in the SLR column.
I would have offered the seller $10 for it.

Thanks for the advice. I'll avoid 3-in-1 in the future. How thorough does the flushing out and cleaning need to be? I'd rather not have to disassemble the shutter mechanisms... I don't know I'd ever get them back together. I'll clean the contacts.

Yeah $10 would have been better, but considering I got a functional 105mm Nikkor out of it I think I made out okay!

 

[shutterfinger]

How thorough does the flushing out and cleaning need to be?

110%
you may not have to disassemble the shutter mechanism to achieve it.

 

[Robin Guymer]

Hi Mitcham, I've just finished putting another F2 back together that started out as a simple mirror bumper job, but turned into a 4 week mind bender trying to figure out the many faulty issues that were similar to yours.

It sounds like your slow speed mechanism needs to be removed and thoroughly cleaned (I used lighter fluid) and then only oiled very sparingly and carefully on the bearing shafts of the cogs. It should react freely in your fingers. See a youtube of a guy working on a Nikon F slow speed mechanism. There are only 3 screws holding this in place and it slips out easily. Underneath remove the tripod bracket and you will see the 3 screws. Take pictures of it as soon as you pull it out as I spent 2 weeks getting this working again all because the leaf spring at the back was out of alignment. When it goes back in it has to connect with the fork of the shutter arm you have been triggering whilst the face is off.

Having to push down hard on the shutter button sounds familiar to the issue I had. It could be when you reassemble that the arm on the face is not sitting under the shutter button correctly. When you put the face back on just before it closes use a fine screw driver or paper clip to press that black arm down and the face will just close up easily. If still having an issue then try some slight bending of the plate at the bottom of the shutter button as it is quite flexible thin metal maybe for his purpose. Also check that the small round bolt like end of the shutter button is screwed on properly. Mine just fell off it was so loose. Check some details on this photo as it may help.


Underneath the camera are the shutter tension adjusters. The inside one adjusts the tension of the opening shutter curtain. The other one at the back of the camera adjusts the tension of the ropes to the closing curtain on the other side. I stuffed these right up by adjusting too tight and slamming the opening curtain right into its spool which took some prising out. I finally got these right (after I fixed the slow speed mechanism) by backing them both off till the opening curtain was so loose it would not retract and the ropes were sagging loose to the other curtain. I then used 1/4 turns till I got the opening curtain to properly retract and the closing curtain working to 1 second. Once you get these right then the other slow speeds should be close. I think the speed adjustments for speeds over 1/8 seconds are actually at the top of the camera and should only be touched by a camera technician. In the manual they specify a tension on the opening curtain to start with so this is why I got it really loose then just tightened slowly. This particular F2 will need to go to an expert for proper adjustments at some stage, although my speeds seem pretty good now according to the photo resistor setup I made. I was disappointed to find it had been to a service person before and not put back together properly. My old black $40 beater is superb to use and in better shape than this $200 one.
This post may also be of help. https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/nikon-f2-winder-lockup-or-double-winding-problems.359/ Good luck with it.

Robin

 

[mitchamtuell]

Hi Mitcham, I've just finished putting another F2 back together that started out as a simple mirror bumper job, but turned into a 4 week mind bender trying to figure out the many faulty issues that sound similar to yours.

It sounds like your slow speed mechanism needs to be removed and thoroughly cleaned (I used lighter fluid) and then only oiled very sparingly and carefully on the bearing shafts of the cogs. It should react freely in your fingers. See a youtube of a guy working on a Nikon F slow speed mechanism. There are only 3 screws holding this in place and it slips out easily. Underneath remove the tripod bracket and you will see the 3 screws. Take pictures of it as soon as you pull it out as I spent 2 weeks getting this working again all because the leaf spring at the back was out of alignment. When it goes back in it has to connect with the fork of the shutter arm you have been triggering whilst the face is off.

Having to push down hard on the shutter button sounds familiar to the issue I had. It could be when you reassemble that the arm on the face is not sitting under the shutter button correctly. When you put the face back on just before it closes use a fine screw driver or paper clip to press that black arm down and the face will just close up easily. If still having an issue then try some slight bending of the plate at the bottom of the shutter button as it is quite flexible thin metal maybe for his purpose. Also check that the small round bolt like end of the shutter button is screwed on properly. Mine just fell off it was so loose. Check some details on this photo as it may help.
View attachment 199032

Underneath the camera are the shutter tension adjusters. The inside one adjusts the tension of the opening shutter curtain. The other one at the back of the camera adjusts the tension of the ropes to the closing curtain on the other side. I stuffed these right up by adjusting too tight and slamming the opening curtain right into its spool which took some prising out. I finally go these right (after I fixed the slow speed mechanism) by backing them both off till the opening curtain was so loose it would not retract and the ropes were sagging loose to the other curtain. I then used 1/4 turns till I got the opening curtain to properly retract and the closing curtain working to 1 second. Once you get these right then the other slow speeds should be close. I think the speed adjustments for speeds over 8 seconds are actually at the top of the camera and should only be touched by a camera technician. In the manual they specify a tension on the opening curtain to start with so this is why I got it really loose then just tightened slowly. This particular F2 will need to go to an expert for proper adjustments at some stage. I was disappointed to find it had been to a service person before and not put back together properly. My old black $40 beater is superb to use and in better shape than this $200 one.
This post may also be of help. https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/nikon-f2-winder-lockup-or-double-winding-problems.359/ Good luck with it.

Robin

Thanks for your detailed response Robin. Your posts are probably the best F2 repair info on the internet! Hopefully this thread can serve as another resource. Thanks for the winder lockup article too - hadn't previously seen that one.

I didn't realize that the low speed mechanism could just pop out like that. I'll do that. As far as flushing out the 3-in-1 from the high speed mechanism, how should I do that? Compressed air? Douse it in lighter fluid?

I'm not sure I completely understand the process for the curtain tensioning. Did you do 1/4 turns for each of them at the same time, or tension one first?

 

[E. von Hoegh]

The curtain tension can be set only with the aid of a shutter timer, which also measures the travel time; the specification is available in the service manual, iirc the manual specified what timing machine as well. All mechanism must be clean and correctly lubricated. Shutter speeds can be adjusted only after the curtain tension is set. The curtain tension/travel time is not altered to adjust the speeds, regardless of what you will read on the internet.

 

[BMbikerider]

Can I suggest you look at the link to probably the finest Nikon F2 repairer - anywhere. He services and repairs ONLY Nikon F2 models. This has been on Photrio a few times before but is well worth repetition.

http://www.soverf2repair.webs.com/

He is so expert that he even makes replacements for the common failed F2 metering systems. He has a section called "Repairers from hell! Here he shows what damage can be done when the wrong tools are used. He has them all - the correct tools that is. Sometimes the damage is too great and the bodies are reduced to trash

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Can I suggest you look at the link to probably the finest Nikon F2 repairer - anywhere. He services and repairs ONLY Nikon F2 models. This has been on Photrio a few times before but is well worth repetition.

http://www.soverf2repair.webs.com/

He is so expert that he even makes replacements for the common failed F2 metering systems. He has a section called "Repairers from hell! Here he shows what damage can be done when the wrong tools are used. He has them all - the correct tools that is. Sometimes the damage is too great and the bodies are reduced to trash

Sover is excellent, the best. I have a very early F2/DpII that were Soverised, both function as new, he's worth every penny.

 

[mitchamtuell]

The curtain tension can be set only with the aid of a shutter timer, which also measures the travel time; the specification is available in the service manual, iirc the manual specified what timing machine as well. All mechanism must be clean and correctly lubricated. Shutter speeds can be adjusted only after the curtain tension is set. The curtain tension/travel time is not altered to adjust the speeds, regardless of what you will read on the internet.

I mentioned in the opening post that I'm planning to build a simple shutter timer to help me. If not by adjusting curtain tension, then how do you adjust the speeds? The service manual does have the factory tolerances, but the description of how to adjust the speeds is kinda cryptic and I can't figure out what it means.

Can I suggest you look at the link to probably the finest Nikon F2 repairer - anywhere. He services and repairs ONLY Nikon F2 models. This has been on Photrio a few times before but is well worth repetition.

http://www.soverf2repair.webs.com/

He is so expert that he even makes replacements for the common failed F2 metering systems. He has a section called "Repairers from hell! Here he shows what damage can be done when the wrong tools are used. He has them all - the correct tools that is. Sometimes the damage is too great and the bodies are reduced to trash

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm aware of Sover and actually mentioned him in my opening post. I really got this camera for the lens, which I've already cleaned, and I don't really have money to put in to shipping and his fee. This one clearly needs a lot of work, so I could probably just buy a camera in better condition for less money... Plus I'm doing this as a hobby project and want to learn.

 

[saman13]

Say "Nikon F2 repair" 3 times into a mirror and @Robin Guymer will appear...

 

[Robin Guymer]

Say "Nikon F2 repair" 3 times into a mirror and @Robin Guymer will appear...

Crikey Sam, too much of a rap up. I will be on Sover's hit list soon. I'm more of a strategic tinkerer and like a surgeon, I've buried a few mistakes along the way.

 

[Robin Guymer]

............
I'm not sure I completely understand the process for the curtain tensioning. Did you do 1/4 turns for each of them at the same time, or tension one first?

I took up the slack first on both. Then adjusted the opening curtain tension till it felt similar to my other F2. After that it was a matter of tweaking both till the photo resistor setup was measuring accurate at 1 second. My slow speeds are now all pretty accurate but the top end seems a bit slow and fixing them is above my pay scale.
For a lubricant you might want to try WD40 Dry PTFE spray used sparingly. It gets into tight places and I've had a lot of success getting old jammed up cameras working again without major surgery. I've just sparked an old banger F3 back to life using this stuff.
Robin.

 

[shutterfinger]

Lighter fluid's main ingredient is NAPHTHA. While a fast acting solvent it will damage plastic and rubber parts in a camera. It should be a last resort cleaner for cameras. Dilute it 1:2 or 1:3 with 90% alcohol for a safe in cameras cleaner or use the 90% alcohol without the naphtha.

 

[mitchamtuell]

I took up the slack first on both. Then adjusted the opening curtain tension till it felt similar to my other F2. After that it was a matter of tweaking both till the photo resistor setup was measuring accurate at 1 second. My slow speeds are now all pretty accurate but the top end seems a bit slow and fixing them is above my pay scale.
For a lubricant you might want to try WD40 Dry PTFE spray used sparingly. It gets into tight places and I've had a lot of success getting old jammed up cameras working again without major surgery. I've just sparked an old banger F3 back to life using this stuff.
Robin.

Okay I think I understand.

Lighter fluid's main ingredient is NAPHTHA. While a fast acting solvent it will damage plastic and rubber parts in a camera. It should be a last resort cleaner for cameras. Dilute it 1:2 or 1:3 with 90% alcohol for a safe in cameras cleaner or use the 90% alcohol without the naphtha.

Thanks, I'll try this.

 

[BMbikerider]

By far the best cleaner for fine electronic and small mechanical parts is Isopropyl Alcohol. Sometimes called Isopropanol. I removes all oil lubricant and dirt and leaves the surfaces spotless. Readily available (in UK) as a 99% pure liquid. When used it leaves no trace behind and does not damage rubber. or similar seals and is relatively cheap. It is FAR better than naptha in all ways.

 

[mitchamtuell]

I took up the slack first on both. Then adjusted the opening curtain tension till it felt similar to my other F2. After that it was a matter of tweaking both till the photo resistor setup was measuring accurate at 1 second. My slow speeds are now all pretty accurate but the top end seems a bit slow and fixing them is above my pay scale.
For a lubricant you might want to try WD40 Dry PTFE spray used sparingly. It gets into tight places and I've had a lot of success getting old jammed up cameras working again without major surgery. I've just sparked an old banger F3 back to life using this stuff.
Robin.

Okay, so I cleaned out everything with lighter fluid. Took out the slow speed timer and soaked it. Tons of gunk came out. Got it back in correctly first try ! Did my best to get the lighter fluid in to the other parts of the camera where I put the 3-in-1. There already appeared to be some sticky residue, perhaps from the 3-in-1 - not gonna use that again. Lightly relubricated anything that looked like a bearing with Tri-flow from the tip of a screwdriver.

I backed off both tensions all the way until it was like you describe, then tensioned each just a little until it fires correctly at 1 second. As far as I can tell it's pretty close to 1 second - don't have a real measuring rig, but a rough stopwatch guess puts it reasonably close. Same for 1/2 and 1/4. Above that it seems to be working all the way to 1/30. 1/60 and above fire, but the curtains don't have any separation so no light ever hits the film plane. I've messed with tensioning each curtain, but it doesn't seem to make it better. I tighten the opening shutter, but eventually it gets too tight and it's impossible to wind.

It's weird because I had it working at all speeds once before... Am I doing something wrong?

 

[BMbikerider]

It's weird because I had it working at all speeds once before... Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, you didn't send it to Sover Wong!

 

[shutterfinger]

No, its because you crawled under a rock and poured liter fluid in it.

Study focal plane shutter operation and electronic timing once you crawl out from under that rock.

 

[mitchamtuell]

Yes, you didn't send it to Sover Wong!

I'll gladly mail it across the Atlantic if you pay. Want my PayPal?

No, its because you crawled under a rock and poured liter fluid in it.

Study focal plane shutter operation and electronic timing once you crawl out from under that rock.

Wasn't it you who told me to flush out the 3-in-1? What exactly did you intend me to use for the flushing? Water? Beer?

I'd actually like to learn about focal plane shutter operation - that's literally why I'm here. Not a ton of great resources around that I've seen - can you point me to some? I'm also just fed up with textbook learning since I just finished my engineering degree. I thought this would be a fun no-risk project to learn about how mechanical cameras work first hand, and I came here hoping to find experienced repairers who would be excited to find a young person interested in studying this dying art and working with his hands to bring an abandoned camera back to life. Guess that's not you.

Yes I chose to use naphtha instead of isopropyl alcohol. Had it on hand and had proven results and documented work from Robin, who has been very helpful. Are there even any plastic and rubber parts in the fast shutter mechanism? What specifically did I destroy by using naphtha?

I really do appreciate the advice from everyone here, I just wish there was more sympathy.

 

[shutterfinger]

Horizontal travel shutter curtains are usually rubber coated silk, vertical travel are titanium. Timing solenoids are plastic housings with their coils varnish coated copper wire.
Tension is adjusted so that both curtains travel across the film plane at the same rate.
Mechanical and electronic timing release the second curtain so that a slit is formed between the curtains which travels over the film plane exposing the film or sensor for a specified time.
The faster the time the narrower the slit, the slower the time the wider the slit until the entire film plane is exposed to light with the second curtain closing and ending the exposure.
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/shutterspeedtester.html
I used this how to and some others then modified them as posted in this thread
https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6105&highlight=shutter+speed+testing
Now that Radio Shack is dead try other local or online electronic parts suppliers.
I have tested speeds up to 1/1000 on leaf shutters and focal plane shutters in large format cameras and it is accurate.
If you can read and understand it here then you should be able to understand tech manuals/ books.

 

[mitchamtuell]

Horizontal travel shutter curtains are usually rubber coated silk, vertical travel are titanium. Timing solenoids are plastic housings with their coils varnish coated copper wire.
Tension is adjusted so that both curtains travel across the film plane at the same rate.
Mechanical and electronic timing release the second curtain so that a slit is formed between the curtains which travels over the film plane exposing the film or sensor for a specified time.
The faster the time the narrower the slit, the slower the time the wider the slit until the entire film plane is exposed to light with the second curtain closing and ending the exposure.
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/shutterspeedtester.html
I used this how to and some others then modified them as posted in this thread
https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6105&highlight=shutter+speed+testing
Now that Radio Shack is dead try other local or online electronic parts suppliers.
I have tested speeds up to 1/1000 on leaf shutters and focal plane shutters in large format cameras and it is accurate.
If you can read and understand it here then you should be able to understand tech manuals/ books.

Thanks for your response.

I did my best to keep the fluid off of the shutter curtains themselves, but probably didn't succeed fully. Thankfully, in the F2 the rubber/silk curtain is sheathed on both sides by titanium foil, which shouldn't be affected by the naphtha. Even if the curtain itself is destroyed, how would that be causing my problem of the slow speeds working fine and the fast speeds not? You implied that was the case.

I haven't built my shutter timer yet, but those are good resources. This is the one part of the project I actually feel comfortable with, having a EE degree and experience with hobby electronics.

The world didn't end when Radio Shack went out of business - it just changed a lot. It's not all bad.

I'll look around for some old books on Nikon repair if I can find them.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

The F2 shutter curtains are titanium foil only, no rubber, no silk, and no timing solenoids; it's purely mechanical.
Sover Wong charges what he does because the F2 is a very complex camera, it consists of over 1,500 parts. Very poor choice to "learn" on, particularly when one has no grounding in the basics of working on smallish mechanisms.

 

[Robin Guymer]

Maybe use the Isoproponal rather than lighter fluid as per the other posters recommendations. I am (was) a builder carpenter so am no way in a position to give accurate advice on your issues. My perception of how these cameras work is this. The underneath curtain adjusters only adjust tension not speed. The sectional diagrams seem to show that the curtain speed Is controlled inside the actual main closing curtain tube and these are adjusted by the cams under the speed dial area. There are two small adjuster screws with lock screws around them that must be used to adjust the higher speeds. I wouldn't fiddle with these without hooking the camera up to a proper shutter timer. The slow speeds of 1 to 1/8th speeds are controlled by the slow speed mechanism. All this does is put pressure on the cam under the main shutter assembly. It is just metal to metal friction that holds the closing curtain till the cogs in the slow speed assembly spin out and release it. If there is oil and grease on that underneath cam then the slow speed mechanism will not be able to hold the curtain open. Speeds above that are controlled within the main tube and my guess is these may act with some sort of friction or gearing. Given the poor state of your camera and the amount of gunk in other areas leads me to think that there is more gunk under the speed dial area and maybe in the main shutter tube gearing. At your higher speeds the camera may be releasing the opening curtain too slowly, or it is jamming a bit and so the closing curtain is catching up to it meaning no light gets through. Or the gearing in the closing shutter tube is not holding back the closing curtain so they are both releasing at the same time.

Given the buy price maybe tackle the top end under the speed dial and pull the whole shutter assembly out for thorough cleaning. It's probably not worth the angst though. Good luck and don't take my advice as I'm not a camera technician. Hope some other members can help you.
Robin.

 

[shutterfinger]

The world didn't end when Radio Shack went out of business - it just changed a lot.

I only used Radio Shack as the post was written for the average Do It Yourselfer that had little or no electronic experience.
I made more than 1 tester. Testing fps from 2x3 to 5x7 I made a tester of two photo diodes on small blocks that can be attached to larger boards that fit the film holder opening of the camera. I measure starting time and finishing time as well as the travel time across the frame. All this tells the consistency of the shutter across all speeds.
For 35mm I would use 2 sensors that are movable so that I could measure start, middle, and ending times. horizontal travel 36mm would be something like 5mm, 18mm, and 31mm points for the center of the sensor. Most light sensitive LED's available have a 10° angle of view and are sensitive to near infrared through infrared. A red filter material equivalent to a #25 wratten allows for the use of a incandescent or CFL light source and should work with white led light source.

Now I think you are making some Assumptions, 1. both curtains have the same drag coefficient and 2. require the same tension to travel across the frame and 3. the timing has never been adjusted.
Build a tester and get both curtains traveling across the frame at the same rate at all points across the frame then concern yourself with speed timing.