Help with repair and set up of a very old Bray cine film processor please!

[Bambi_]

Hi there,
I recently won this old film processor at auction, its labelled as Hadland, but on the side it actually says manufactured for Hadland by Geoffrey Bray. I don't have any experience at all with these small film processors and was hoping to get it in working order to develop some 16mm film I've shot.
So I have absolutely tons of questions, and if anybody could be help me out I'd be really grateful. I can add more pictures if needed as well.

1. the machine consists of 4 tanks and a drying compartment, the 3rd tank is double the width and has 2 rollers, please see second picture. the second set of rollers also has a clip which houses a squeegee sponge (taken out and placed on top of the machine in the picture.). this compartment also contains a small spray/hose with holes facing the first roller. Is this a regular wash bath or is it used for removing remjet? It comes after the developer and fixer tanks, which contain heating elements.
EDIT: I've just noticed that the 4th compartment is also part of the dryer. So 4th and 5th compartment, can't hold liquids by design.

2. In the third picture there are 2 hose attachments at the back of the machine, I was wondering what these would need to be hooked up to, I know some of the Bray processors did not require a mains water supply but it looks like this one might? If what does each one do/need?
EDIT: I've traced the pipes and one is part of the drainage, and the one on the right seems to supply only the small sprayer in the wash compartment.

3. The motor is "loose" for want of a better term, if you look at the 4th picture. Added the last 2 pics to show it more clearly/close up. While it appears to be screwed to a plastic penal at the back, both are actually hanging and only fixed by 1 screw. Most of the weight is then being bore by the chain at the top much must drive the rollers. There's no screw holes to fix the panel down. I highly doubt it's supposed to be like this but then there's nothing else for it to fix to so perhaps it is?

4. There's an unusual plug on the side which requires 3 pins in a small circle, I'm not sure even what it is/does. 6th picture is the outside and 7th is how it looks inside.

Any help with this at all would be appreciated. I haven't been able to find any kind of manual online or even a similar machine listed anywhere. It looks overall pretty good and I really hope I can get it working. Many thanks!

B

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio!

I'm not familiar with this machine, but I'll hazard a few guesses / pose some more probing questions:

Is this a regular wash bath or is it used for removing remjet?

I suspect the latter. I assume the sponge touches the non-emulsion side?

In the third picture there are 2 hose attachments at the back of the machine, I was wondering what these would need to be hooked up to

Where do they go to inside the machine? I'd just trace the piping inside the machine as far as possible and figure it out from there.

As to 3: Maybe the original motor burned out and someone improvised a replacement. By loose, do you mean it actually wiggles? A motor in that function and position would evidently need to be firmly attached to the chassis.

As to 4: not sure what it's for, either, but it looks like a connector to power an auxiliary machine (dryer?). I suspect if you trace the two brown (phase/live) wires inside the cabinet that one's wired directly to the power chord/input and the other to the mains switch on the machine proper.

Sorry for not being more specific; let's hope that someone with hands-on experience with this machine pops up. Looks like a really nice/interesting find. The model number suggests it would do 35mm as well...convenient in case you want to go into Hollywood productions

 

[Bambi_]

Welcome to Photrio!

I'm not familiar with this machine, but I'll hazard a few guesses / pose some more probing questions:



I suspect the latter. I assume the sponge touches the non-emulsion side?



Where do they go to inside the machine? I'd just trace the piping inside the machine as far as possible and figure it out from there.

As to 3: Maybe the original motor burned out and someone improvised a replacement. By loose, do you mean it actually wiggles? A motor in that function and position would evidently need to be firmly attached to the chassis.

As to 4: not sure what it's for, either, but it looks like a connector to power an auxiliary machine (dryer?). I suspect if you trace the two brown (phase/live) wires inside the cabinet that one's wired directly to the power chord/input and the other to the mains switch on the machine proper.

Sorry for not being more specific; let's hope that someone with hands-on experience with this machine pops up. Looks like a really nice/interesting find. The model number suggests it would do 35mm as well...convenient in case you want to go into Hollywood productions

Thanks so much for the reply.
2. I followed your advice and traced the piping, I think one is actually the drain outlet and the other is for the sprayer inside the wash chamber, I'm not sure if it runs on normal tap pressure or needs a specific psi.

3. Yes the motor wriggles, the whole grey plastic plate it is attached to is not attached to anything else. What's strange is that while the motor sits tightly on the plate, there is no screw holes at all for the plate to attach to the machine or anything else.

4. I traced the wires and they seem to lead to the control panel. One is to the bottom switch which is the tail/cut out/override. The second brown wire goes to the second switch down which is the solution heaters, as far as I can tell but they are quite hard to follow.

I do actually have some reels of 35, though no camera to shoot it with! Ideas above my station

Thanks again.

 

[ic-racer]

Wow that is nice. Is it for E6?

 

[John Salim]

Welcome Bambi ! ... is that your real name ?

The machine you have there looks to be a 16mm B&W negative film processor.
( I use a Bray E-6 machine on a daily basis ) and yours, as you know is a custom made machine.
It won't necessarily be for motion picture film, but could be for microfilm.

The hoses will be for ( tempered ) wash tank water supply and drainage. The spray bar is for more efficient washing.
The three pin electrical socket is probably for controlling a separate replenisher unit.

The dryer looks pretty rusty and the drive motor definitely should not be dangling there, but solidly attached to the machine and drive chain.

Can you supply some pictures of the whole machine from all angles - including from above.
Do you have any accessories ( magazines, take up, splicing equipment etc... )

Cheers,
John S

 

[Kino]

Great you connected with John Salim! He's going to be your best bet to get it going again since he runs a Bray machine!

Not familiar at all with this brand of machine, but I'll try to chime in if I can offer any advice.

 

[Agulliver]

Just want to say a huge "thank you" to @John Salim who's processing services I used earlier this year. If he can't help you, chances are nobody can. Good luck getting your machine working.

 

[Bambi_]

Thanks for all the replies.
Hi John, nice to meet you! I've tried to attach some better picture, if you want to see anything specific please let me know. I've tried to do my best to show it, its sat on the floor behind my sofa at the moment while I figure out how to get it working.
I did add a plug, this had been cut off when it arrived, it has its own fuse inside so perhaps in situ in the lab it was wired directly into the mains? When plugged in nothing happened, I was hoping the light on the side panel might come on at least.
I have removed the drive motor, it was dangling by the chain, and can see that one of the plastic hole it was previous screwed into has sheered. It was affixed to the back of the machine, there's still 2 screws that were missing for some reason, so I can use these to reattach the motor when/if I get working. The chain is intact and it looks okay so I'm hopeful!
Do you have any advice on how to proceed with making it work? Just getting power into at this stage would be a victory.
Thank you again!

 

[Bambi_]

Hi John, I forgot to add, it didn't come with anything else, there's no dark box to load the film into but there appears to be a clip on the side where one would have gone, and there's no take up spool for when its finished either, but I imagine those could DIY'd. There was a stray grey coloured roller which didn't match any of the others or have an obvious place, it can be seen in the first group of pictures on top next to the sponge and squeegee bit.

The machine is quite small, approx 46.5cm wide, 30.5cm deep and 53.5cm tall. The clear rollers inside the tanks are 4cm wide each, I'm not sure if that means its wide enough to also take 35mm film?
I was hoping to be able to get it working to develop my own black and white 16mm, as I have dreams of making a film

 

[Kino]

Here's a good place to start if you want to process your own B&W film in a processor:

https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Processing-KODAK-Motion-Picture-Films-Module-15.pdf

It may be a bit overwhelming at first, but it's worth a read; especially for the replenishment statistics and developer formulas.

Here are many more; color too!

H-24 Modules & Kit Chemicals Processing Manuals

A leading global manufacturer focused on commercial print and advanced materials & chemicals. We believe in the power of technology and science to enhance what the world sees and creates.

www.kodak.com

 

[John Salim]

Hi Bambi, apologies for the late reply :-(

Ok, there's a few issues here and some odd things too.
But for now ....

Power wise.
Is that a fuse holder at the bottom right corner of the control unit ? ( photo's not very clear ).
It looks like there's a fuse with holder missing - that could be a stumbling block if you're not familiar with electrics and electronics. You may have to replace this.

Since it's only a B&W machine ( two heated tanks + dryer ), it isn't very power hungry.
The machine would have had a standard 13a plug fitted to the mains lead ( with a 5a fuse ).

The take-up arm ( with reel spindle ) is missing.
This would have been driven by a spring belt connected to the drive motor pulley.

Can you remove and photograph all the tank racks ( the mechanism where the film is laced through the rollers ).

While the tanks are empty, can you also photograph looking down inside each tank to show the heaters and temperature probes.
And if you can get to it, a picture of the control panel rear would be good.

Finally, was there any paperwork with it ?

Yes, this is designed for 16mm and 35mm film.


Cheers for now,
John S

 

[Bambi_]

Hi john, thanks for getting back to me!
I admit I have absolutely no clue about electronics at all. I'm not sure if there's a fuse missing, I have taken a picture of the inside of the machine. Inside behind the control panel, where there is a glass fuse. I've tried to take some close ups of the electronics. A few bits do look fairly tired and rusty.

For a member of a photography forum I do take some absolutely terrible photos . I've tried to take better ones and label them so they are less confusing.

There is wiring that leads to a small plug on the side (I actually have the tiny plug that fits this) but no idea what it once powered.

The rollers look fairly clean and all move freely.

 

[Bambi_]

It is only letting me attach 15 files at a time so here's the rest of the pictures.

Sadly no paperwork at all with it, I bought it online from a man who didn't even know what it was.

I had actually wanted one of these machines for some time, so much so that at one point I'd even wondered if I could repurpose an old dental xray machine to do the job. When one came up for sale I was very surprised, as I hadn't expected to find one in the wild. I was hopeful it I'd plug it in and it would just work but I now see this was probably a little optimistic

 

[Bambi_]

I missed this one, just the fuse part.

 

[ic-racer]

Looks like bridge rectifiers.

 

[John Salim]

Thanks for the additional images Bambi .... very useful
I can say without question, this was a budget designed machine, and almost certainly a one-off.

There are no replenishing lines nor circulation pumps for the two main tanks - let alone filtration.
So this would have been used as a one-shot, one-batch processor. ie.. fill up, process a roll ( probably 100ft ) dump and clean up.

The lack of circulation pumps would concern me because of the risk of 'bromide run'.
Sometimes cine machine designs can get away without pumps, but are very dependant on the correct transport speed to deliver the right amount of agitation without risking bromide run.

The clear rollers look good enough ( must be clean and super smooth ). The green ones should be replaced as they're at the tail end of the process which are liable to leave drying marks.

It goes without saying you'll need new wipers ( ... that's squeegees to our 'stills' friends ).

There doesn't seem to be any safety cut outs that I can see for solution levels. In other words you shouldn't be able to power up the heaters with empty tanks. That's an important safety thing.

The dryer fan looks like it needs taking apart for cleaning and lubricating. This is exactly the same as mine and I have to do that every few years !
The drive motor probably needs doing too.

This machine is not just for repair - it's for full refurbishment AND repair.
You're going to need hands-on technical help if it's beyond your skills I'm afraid.

It's a pity you're not local.


Best wishes,
John S

 

[PolyFilmLabs]

As John said - it's quite a repair job and involves both mechanical and electrical engineering.

We have some experience in this field, though not specifically with a Bray.

As a side note, I'm unsure of the economic savings running one of these gives you vs processing 16mm in a lomo tank re your note on wanting to use this for a film. Using a lomo to me can get nigh-on comparable results to a machine processor for BW Neg and it's relatively fast.
If you are wanting projection for your film then you'd be doing reversal and this process wouldn't be useful for that. I run a photo and cine film lab so happy to field questions that could help

 

[PolyFilmLabs]

It is only letting me attach 15 files at a time so here's the rest of the pictures.

Sadly no paperwork at all with it, I bought it online from a man who didn't even know what it was.

I had actually wanted one of these machines for some time, so much so that at one point I'd even wondered if I could repurpose an old dental xray machine to do the job. When one came up for sale I was very surprised, as I hadn't expected to find one in the wild. I was hopeful it I'd plug it in and it would just work but I now see this was probably a little optimistic

How did you get on?