Help with loading a Zeiss Ikon 515

[Ces1um]

So I just acquired a Zeiss Ikon Nettar 515 which is a 6x4.5 camera. Mine has two red windows on the back. The manual says you have to wind on until the number 1 appears in the lower (left side) red window and then it is ready for the first photo. It also says that each number must appear twice (once in the lower or left window, and once in the right or upper window depending on orientation). So I'm wondering, after the first photo do you simply wind the number one from the left window to the right one? I took my first photo and wound the number one from the left to the right window. This did not result in seeing the number two appear in the left window. To me it seems it needs to be wound further on until I see the number two in the left window. Does anybody have any experience with a two window 6x4.5 camera?

 

[MattKing]

Those windows probably correspond to the 6x9 numbers on the backing paper - if so there is only eight numbers on that line.
Hopefully, that is not one of the very few cameras that relies on one of the rows of numbers that Kodak recently deleted from 120 backing paper.
In any event, if yours is one of those cameras that rely on the 6x9 numbers, your sixteen 6x4.5 frames will be accessed by lining each of the eight numbers twice - first in the first window, than next in the next window.
Its amazing to think of 6x4.5 as "half frame", isn't it?

 

[Ces1um]

Well, I do know that the numbers appear upside down in the windows and would therefore be the numbers on the "bottom" of the backing paper- I believe these are the 6x9 numbers as you've mentioned. What you've mentioned does seem to fit what the slightly obscure manual would imply- but it does seem to me like there could be overlap between shots when you look where the windows are in relation to the actual exposed areas inside the camera. Well, I'll give it a try and see. Doubt I have much to lose really other than a roll of film and the cost of processing. Thanks for the help- much appreciated.

 

[MattKing]

How far are the windows apart? I bet they are 5 cm apart. And of course, the numbers are 10 cm apart on the backing paper.

 

[abruzzi]

I don’t know your camera at all, but I have seen manuals that describe other cameras with the behavior you describe..I.e. advance (1) to the first window, take photo, advance (1) to the second window, take picture, advance (2) to the first window, take picture, etc.

 

[Bill Burk]

Your camera looks like a 6 x 4.5 and the numbers are for 6x9.

You have two windows, you should shoot 1 in first window then 1 in second window, then 2 in first window then 2 in second window.

I have the Ikonta C without a 6 x 4.5 adapter. I use 6x9 so I have to only use the first window and I ignore the second window.

 

[Ces1um]

How far are the windows apart? I bet they are 5 cm apart. And of course, the numbers are 10 cm apart on the backing paper.

They're 4.6cm apart. Not a lot of space to separate the frames!

 

[shutterfinger]

They're 4.6cm apart. Not a lot of space to separate the frames!

Normal frame spacing is 1.5mm ± .5mm.

 

[MattKing]

They're 4.6cm apart. Not a lot of space to separate the frames!

And how big is the "frame" - bet it's less than a full 4.5 cm.

 

[Ces1um]

And how big is the "frame" - bet it's less than a full 4.5 cm.

I have film in there right now so I can't tell, but it's a 6x4.5 camera. I would think it's 4.5cm but maybe not. It's hard to find a lot of info on my specific model on the internet. Tons of hits on Zeiss Ikon 5** but the information for specifically the 515 is limited. Mostly just descriptions of the camera repeated over and over. The manual wasn't terribly specific either. I think I'll shoot half the roll going from one window to the next and the other half with a new number always in the far left for each frame. Once I develop it I'll know. Just thought someone here might actually have one or one like it (or at least owned one at one point).

 

[bernard_L]

And how big is the "frame" - bet it's less than a full 4.5 cm.

56x42. Give or take a mm, according to the fancy of each manufacturer.

 

[Ces1um]

56x42. Give or take a mm, according to the fancy of each manufacturer.

well, in light of that information I guess I'll stick with going from one window to the next as was originally suggested.

 

[mgb74]

An old thread, but I'll update with some measurements from my 6x4.5 ZI 515. I measured 6x9 spacing on 3 rolls of backing paper. Kodak and Ultrafine were 93mm apart. Ilford was 92.5. This was with a ruler so absolute accuracy cannot be claimed. The spacing between the center of the 2 windows on my 515 is 46.5mm. Exactly half of the Ultrafine and Kodak film and very, very close to half of the Ilford film. The width of the image on the negative from my 515 is 43mm.

 

[thuggins]

For God's sake, people! This is a standard configuration that was used on millions of cameras. Everything will line up fine.

 

[Ariston]

Hopefully, that is not one of the very few cameras that relies on one of the rows of numbers that Kodak recently deleted from 120 backing paper.

What did they delete? I haven't heard this.

 

[MattKing]

What did they delete? I haven't heard this.

Early 2016 - when there was a bunch of problems with wrapper offset - the ink interacting with the emulsion on the adjacent layer of film - they did a number of different things to reduce the amount of ink.
That included making the numbers and letters much lighter (and harder to see - like Ilford) and removing a line or two of the historical numbers - the ones that were for formats that are long gone.
Ironically, one of the sets of numbers removed was the one that was used by the Kodak camera that first used 120 film, which was introduced more than 100 years ago.
There actually is a thread here on Photrio (APUG at the time) where the originator of the thread was outraged that the new films no longer supported his more than 100 year old camera - planned obsolescence being the complaint!

 

[BAC1967]

When I bought my Super Ikonta 530 the seller swore that it was a 6X9 camera. I knew it was 4.5X6 so I asked why he thought it was 6X9. He showed me where it says 6X9 in the camera. What I understand is that’s a reference to the type of film since most cameras that took 120 film where 6X9 format. I suppose early 120 film didn’t have numbering for 4.5X6. My 530 works the same way, 1 in the first window, then 1 in the second window, then 2 in the first window...

 

[Ariston]

I wonder, what was the format? I assume the numbers are still there for 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 amd 6x9. I have cameras with each of these formats...

 

[Donald Qualls]

I wonder, what was the format? I assume the numbers are still there for 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 amd 6x9. I have cameras with each of these formats...

As I recall from that other thread, the problem was that Kodak 120 film used to have three rows of numbers on the 6x9 track, and that was cut down to two at the last backing paper revision -- leaving nothing to show through the window in certain 6x9 cameras, depending on their exact window position.