Help with a Seneca View 6.5x8.5 Dry Plate camera

[Michael Meacham]

After lurking here on and off for several years, I have finally acquired a 6.5 x 8.5 Field Camera. This is a departure for me in many ways as all my previous large format stuff has been monorails, a Graphic View 4x5 and an old Toyo View (cream colored) 5x7. I decided on the 6.5x8.5 because I liked the proportions better than 8x10 and the only one I could find that I could afford was for dry plates. It needs some help. I can't complain about the seller on e-bay because his descriptions were accurate,(darn). It came with 2 double sided plate holders and an extension for the back that, as he pointed out, looks like it was made for this camera, but it doesn't quite fit. I can adapt this, but the bellows leak at virtually every corner. I need recommendations for replacement bellows makers, suggestions on any way to make it work for now so I can start using it, and if all else fails ( or I can't afford the bellows), is anyone aware of a website that shows how to make your own bellows. I am also looking for film sleeves as I was able to score a box of Ilford FP4+ from Midwest Photo for $99.99. It was their last box of that, but they said they do have several boxes of HP5 in stock, if anyone wants any. 1 box was all I could afford now. I will have to relearn my technique for taking pictures as this camera has only rise and fall on the front, (no tilt, no shift, no swing), and on the rear standard, it has tilt and swing, (no rise and fall or shift) I have been spoiled by monorails. All the movements on this camera are geared, which I did not realize when I bid on it. Looking at the photos, I assumed the front had tilt also. If I had known the rise and fall was geared, I would have asked the seller, but not knowing that, I did not ask. The bellows is my most pressing problem as I am dead in the water until I solve it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Mike.

 

[dwross]

Your bellows woes are the easiest to deal with short term, or even long term if choose to go with functional rather than gorgeous. Take a heavy duty black plastic garbage bag (the ones made for contractor cleanup.) Extend the bellows out to its full length. Make a tube from the black plastic that covers the whole length, then tape (black gaffer tape or duct tape) the openings of the tube all around on each end. Voila. Light proof bellows. If your tape job is semi-neat, the whole thing looks just like a bag bellows. If the bellows sag, put a new paint roller tube between the bellows and the track for the bellows to ride on.

Have fun with your new camera. It really is the perfect format! The bits and bobs for it will come together.

 

[Michael Meacham]

Thanks for the advice. Your website is one of my favorites. I get lost trying to navigate it, but then I find a page I hadn't seen before. I had never even considered doing dry plate before I found it. I do cyanotypes so maybe I can work my way up to it. Mike.

 

[Regular Rod]

Hang onto your dry plate holders and don't modify them. Keep them for when dry plate becomes easily available again or for if make your own. Film inserts are expensive and fiddly. Get yourself a couple of film holders to fit your camera in the meantime.

You made a good choice to go whole plate format. There is something almost perfect about it...

RR

 

[dwross]

Michael,

Thanks! Cyanotypes and dry plate are a natural! Paul De Angelis is doing some great work with the combo.

Good advice from Rod. You're lucky to have holders that you know fit your camera. When/if you start shopping for film holders, use those measurements as a reference. When I first started collecting for my WP, I ended up buying a couple of holders that were about 1/4" too big. You wouldn't (I certainly didn't!) think that would make a difference, but they don't fit inside my cameras's spring trap. Good luck. I just checked ebay, and there are a couple of likely candidates there now.
d

 

[sharpnikkor]

Michael,

I have the same Seneca camera. You made a good find. The bellows on my camera were shot as well and I had them replaced by Western Bellows. I'm not sure if Western Bellows is still around. However you can also get replacement bellows at Custom Bellows in the UK.

For bellows replacement you would need to send in the bellows and wooden frames not the whole camera. You will need to unscrew the bellows frame from the front standard, and unscrew the rear frame from the rear standard and send the bellows with frames in for replacement.

My 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 Seneca is the Improved Seneca View - Maximum length with rail extension 26 inches - Weight 7 1/2 lbs. The camera is not that much larger than the 5 x 7 Seneca version and only one pound heavier. The camera is reasonably rigid at full extension.

I would also recommend that you disengage the bellows support arms that are on each side of the bellows, and simply wire them out of the way.

See photos bellow of my Seneca before and after the bellows replacement.

Let us know how you make out....

 

[Michael Meacham]

Thanks Rod, D, and Sharp. I will definitely keep the plate holders. I'm going to experiment with cardboard spacers to see if I can make film work in them. So far I have been unable to find any type of attachment for the bellows. I'll look closer. For the present, I tried D's suggestion of contractor's trash bag and gaffers tape. It looks like it works, but of course, I can't collapse it now. I've got a Cooke 13" Series IV Brass lens mounted in a Wollensak Alphex shutter that I believe will work once I make a new lensboard for it. It is massive, but the hole size is smaller than the lensboard so I think it will work. It was sold to me as a Wollensak lens, but that's only the shutter. When you get the light right you can see Cooke Anastigmat 5.6 13" Series IV. It appears to be uncoated, which should fit right in with dry plates, and the glass is fine. I will be mostly shooting landscapes at infinity to begin with and with the bellows taped up in the extended position, I'm a little bit over 13". Sharp, in your first picture, your's looks like it is polished wood and brass fittings. Mine is black paint and chrome fittings, and the bellows looks painted also. Do you have the contact information on either of the bellows makers?
Thanks for all the help, Mike.

 

[sharpnikkor]

Hi Michael,

Here is the contact information for both Western Bellows and Custom Bellows.
Western Bellows
Jim Ormond
7454 Henbane Street
Etiwanda, CA 91739-9765
(909) 980-0606

Custom Bellows
Contact Keith
custombellows@hotmail.com

My Seneca is black paint with nickel plated hardware. They are very nice looking cameras when cleaned up.

Scott

 

[dwross]

Hi Scott,
Thanks for the Western Bellows info! That's a great resource that has totally escaped my attention. If it's in one's budget, a beautiful old camera certainly deserves all the beautiful new parts you can give it. I have an 8x10 Seneca languishing, waiting for my attention. The bellows are good, but one of the metal rail guide pieces is broken. I'm sure there is either a workaround or the right machine shop somewhere, but I haven't gotten to it. I think this thread has inspired me to try again .

Michael, If you have the time to let your camera be out of commission for a week or two, and if complete collapse is important to you, and if the holes in your bellows aren't too big, and if it doesn't work out with Western Bellows (a lot of 'ifs'!) you can use bellows repair patch. Bostick and Sullivan sells it. It stinks when it's wet, and I've never gotten all the holes in a bellows in one application, but it does work and you'll be able to collapse the camera as designed. (I don't usually. They shouldn't be stored that way for long, and when I'm shooting with a camera, I like to keep it set up and ready.)

http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=6&cat=0&page=1

 

[sharpnikkor]

Western Bellows did an excellent job on the bellows for my Seneca Whole plate camera. As I mentioned if Western is not active try Custom Bellows in the UK. I've used them as well and their bellows are top of the line. Keith is responsive to emails and quotes and the turn around is not that bad. That is good information to have on the bellows repair patch from Bostick and Sullivan.

To inspire Seneca owners with old cameras languishing in the closet to get out and restore and use them, here are the specs from the 1918 Seneca Catalog for four sizes offered for the Improved Seneca View Camera. The long bellows draw and the light weight are perfect for field use.

Size: 5 x 7 Length of draw: 23 1/2 inches Weight: 6 1/2 lbs.
Size: 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 Length of draw: 26 inches Weight: 7 1/2 lbs.
Size: 8 x 10 Length of draw: 30 inches Weight: 10 1/2 lbs.
Size: 11 x 14 Length of draw: 39 1/2 inches Weight: 18 1/2 lbs.

Pictured are three Senecas, 5 x 7, Whole plate and 8 x 10. Notice that the whole plate body is not that much larger than the 5 x 7.
The whole plate and the 5 x 7 Senecas share the same width rails. There is a jump in rail size to the 8 x 10 body. Still a very manageable weight at 10 1/2 lbs.

Also check out the Kolb Brothers online and visit their studio and museum at the Grand Canyon. They used an Improved Seneca View to photograph the Grand Canyon in the early teens and twenties. A Seneca View is on display at that museum.

 

[Michael Meacham]

Thanks Denise and Scott, for the info and the pictures. It's very encouraging. Once I get my lens board made, I'll be ready to try some shots. Mike.

 

[redrockcoulee]

Western Bellows did an excellent job on the bellows for my Seneca Whole plate camera. As I mentioned if Western is not active try Custom Bellows in the UK. I've used them as well and their bellows are top of the line. Keith is responsive to emails and quotes and the turn around is not that bad. That is good information to have on the bellows repair patch from Bostick and Sullivan.

To inspire Seneca owners with old cameras languishing in the closet to get out and restore and use them, here are the specs from the 1918 Seneca Catalog for four sizes offered for the Improved Seneca View Camera. The long bellows draw and the light weight are perfect for field use.

Size: 5 x 7 Length of draw: 23 1/2 inches Weight: 6 1/2 lbs.
Size: 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 Length of draw: 26 inches Weight: 7 1/2 lbs.
Size: 8 x 10 Length of draw: 30 inches Weight: 10 1/2 lbs.
Size: 11 x 14 Length of draw: 39 1/2 inches Weight: 18 1/2 lbs.

Pictured are three Senecas, 5 x 7, Whole plate and 8 x 10. Notice that the whole plate body is not that much larger than the 5 x 7.
The whole plate and the 5 x 7 Senecas share the same width rails. There is a jump in rail size to the 8 x 10 body. Still a very manageable weight at 10 1/2 lbs.

Also check out the Kolb Brothers online and visit their studio and museum at the Grand Canyon. They used an Improved Seneca View to photograph the Grand Canyon in the early teens and twenties. A Seneca View is on display at that museum.

The extension rail that came with our Whole Plate (black) would not fit our 5X7 (stained wood) as it was slightly wider than would fit on the 5X7.

 

[sharpnikkor]

The width of the rail on my 5 x 7 and whole plate both in (black) are the same at 6 3/4 inches wide.

However I should have clarified that they are not readily interchangeable. While my 5 x 7 Seneca has a 6 3/4 x 10 1/4 inch rail and the whole plate has a 6 3/4 x 11 1/8 inch rail, the same width rail. The mounting pins are slightly off, the gear track widths are slightly off. You can't swap them out. Ah the variables of wood cameras.

 

[Michael Meacham]

Scott, that is exactly my situation. The rear extension for my whole plate is really for a 5x7. The measurements you listed match it exactly. Anybody got a Seneca 5x7 with a whole plate rear extension? Wanna trade? Mike

 

[sharpnikkor]

Michael, It is a challenge trying to find a matching rear rail for any wood tailboard style camera when the original rail has been lost. As per Ken Ruth a repairman I've used in the past, each extension rail was custom fitted to each wooden camera then stamped with a matching number for the extension rail and the camera base. All well and good if your camera came with the original rear rail with matching numbers.

If the extension rail has been lost then the great search begins. Quite often you can find an extension rail for the exact same format camera, a 5 x 7 Seneca for instance and they are not interchangeable. Very frustrating.

However there is hope for fitting a wayward rail to your camera if you have woodworking skills or know a competent woodworker. The gear tracks, the pins, the rail width can all be adjusted or transferred to newly created rail.

I wish you the best on making that rail work on the whole plate camera you have. It is worth it in the end.

 

[Michael Meacham]

Scott, that was my original plan, to pull the pins and fill the hole and re-drill to match the camera. The screw would also need the same thing. The spacing on the rails appears to match if I can get the pins and screw to do so. The only problem is that the 5x7 rear extension is shorter than the whole plate and will reduce total bellows extension. Also I hate to take a perfectly good 5x7 extension and change it when there is probably someone out there who is looking for this exact part. I wonder if there is a source for the racks (rails) out there anywhere? If I could find those, I could make a new extension from scratch. Mike.

 

[sharpnikkor]

PM sent on Seneca rail