Help, what happed here!

[Steve York]

What happened here? I've been developing my own B&W film for about a decade, and have used several bulk rolls of ORWO UN54 in the past w/ various developers w/o issues. Suddenly then, midway through a 400' bulk roll, I start getting these wrecked negatives full of dots, ect. Eight rolls ruined; doesn't matter if it was Rodinal (both stand and full), Clayton F76 or HC110. I ruled out water, chemicals, contaminated tanks, and it doesn't look like lights leaks during the loading process. Are these air bubbles? With a new pup sleeping in the house I was possibly tapping the tanks less hard, but then my wife says she never taps the tanks during development, albeit with Foma. Thinking it's defective film, I started de-rolling and chucking the film out, but maybe it's me. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Steve York]

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

"When you have eliminated everything else, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - S. Holmes, somewhat modified.

Has this occurred with any other film but the one bulk roll of Orwo? Has the appearance of the spotting been different with different developers?

All that aside and speaking from my position of ignorance my vote is the film as the culprit.

 

[Steve York]

"When you have eliminated everything else, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - S. Holmes, somewhat modified.

Has this occurred with any other film but the one bulk roll of Orwo? Has the appearance of the spotting been different with different developers?

All that aside and speaking from my position of ignorance my vote is the film as the culprit.

No problem with other films using the same chemicals, water, equipment and technique. The intensity of the spotting is random throughout the roll of film but similar with all the developers used. Strangely, some rolls film from this very same 400' bulk roll have developed fine. Which made me think I'm doing something wrong in developing or I loaded cassettes wrong, or maybe just part of the bulk roll is bad. The cassettes themselves have been used with other film w/o problems. True enigma.

 

[koraks]

This is quite perplexing, indeed.

Could you post a clear photo of an affected negative on a light table that shows the defect as it appears on the film itself? Perhaps that gives a clue.

 

[Steve York]

This is quite perplexing, indeed.

Could you post a clear photo of an affected negative on a light table that shows the defect as it appears on the film itself? Perhaps that gives a clue.

 

[MattKing]

That helps.
Now can you snip off a small piece of unexposed film, and examine it carefully under the light, with a view to trying to see if there is any physical damage to the film that might be visible.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Any chance it could be mold/fungus on the unexposed film?
Maybe roll off a small sample roll and examine it closely in daylight...

 

[Steve York]

Any chance it could be mold/fungus on the unexposed film?
Maybe roll off a small sample roll and examine it closely in daylight...

That's what my wife possibly thought. Great minds think alike. I threw about 15 rolls last night, so I'll go look at the film in the sun. Wondering now whether I need to clean all my cassettes with alcohol or something, though they're metal/brass, so not sure mold can grow on that metal.

 

[MattKing]

Also, you might try fixing an unexposed snip, to see if you see any problems in that circumstance.

 

[koraks]

The image on the light table does indeed show the defect clearly, but other than that it's indeed a minus density anomaly, it doesn't give away much else.

Even if mold isn't the issue, examining an unprocessed snippet of film might give some further clue.

Also, you might try fixing an unexposed snip, to see if you see any problems in that circumstance.

And in the process, I would also develop a strip that's fully fogged to daylight to see if it shows any anomalies. A coating defect should show up in this scenario as well.

 

[MattKing]

Perhaps we should put all these suggested tests into a Sticky thread.

 

[Steve York]

I'll try these suggestions, but one issue is that some rolls from this bulk roll are turning out just fine. In fact, the first 15-20 rolls, no problems when developed, then 8 or so rolls with these dots, imprecations. Last night I developed this film from this questionable bulk roll with a roll from a different bulk roll of the same film. No issues. I more curious now, doubt I'll continue to use this film, because I can't trust it, but then I've had a bad brick of tri-x in the past a faulty bulk roll of Foma 200. Nothing like this though. Too bad because Orwo is nice, and inexpensive.

 

[koraks]

Perhaps we should put all these suggested tests into a Sticky thread.

Hm, there's a thought...

@Steve York I see what you mean. It's impossible to predict which bits are problematic. You could of course take a couple of strategically selected samples, but it does complicate matters.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I always thump the tank when developing film to avoid air bells [air bubbles], that does not include when I am using the JObo system. However this does not look like air bells.

Possible dirt or debris in the chemicals? Have you run each chemical through a paper filter to check?

 

[Steve York]

I always thump the tank when developing film to avoid air bells [air bubbles], that does not include when I am using the JObo system. However this does not look like air bells.

Possible dirt or debris in the chemicals? Have you run each chemical through a paper filter to check?

Thought about the too. I got dotted film in the past with bad fixer. I made some new fixer and opened a new bottle of Clayton F76 and still had the same issues. I've used the same chemicals with other films w/o any issue. To make matters even more mysterious, some rolls from this bulk roll of Orwo turned out just fine, using the same chemicals, water, equipment, technique as the faulty rolls. Weird.

 

[Craig]

Could it be dust in the camera? Something is preventing light from hitting the film, or allowing the chemicals to get to the film.

Were the rolls that came out ok from the same camera exposed at a similar time? I.e. not months apart.

EDIT: looking closer at the negative in post 6, in the top left I see a blob that crosses the frame edge and it looks like an area of lesser density in both the exposed and non exposed sprocket hole area. I'm suspecting that the cause is chemical, rather than mechanical like dust, just because it affects both the image and non-image areas.

 

[tokam]

I think that dust on the film before exposure would be sharply defined on the developed neg. These spots are fuzzy and dissipate towards the edges of each spot.

Air bells during processing processing tend to give areas of lower density on the negs but not absolutely no developer activity unless you were stand processing perhaps? After a few agitation cycles the air bells should be removed.

I have had one film affected by fixer which had precipitates in it which would appear white as per normal dust spots on the inverted scans.

I think that processing both an unexposed and exposed strip of film may or may not reveal more. If there was a problem in coating of the emulsion it could be quite intermittent and the affected areas of the film would be randomly spread along the bulk roll.

On your pics of the negs the spots have even lower density than the film rebate. Almost as if there was no emulsion in the spots to be developed.

 

[Craig]

Almost as if there was no emulsion in the spots to be developed.

Upon reflection, I was thinking that too.

 

[Steve York]

I did develop a roll where only 1/2 the roll was exposed. Defects appeared only on those sections exposed to light.

I have a query into the company and they bumped me to a technical person who has yet to respond. I see someone else posted a thread on this forum a few years back with a similar problem on the same film.

 

[koraks]

Defects appeared only on those sections exposed to light.

How did you determine the presence of defects on the unexposed part? In other words - does this mean the defect is only zero optical density, but no physical anomaly otherwise?

I see someone else posted a thread on this forum a few years back with a similar problem on the same film.

Oh! Would you mind including a link? I could look for it, but you've got it handy. It'll be relevant for other people who may stumble across this thread later on.

 

[Steve York]

How did you determine the presence of defects on the unexposed part? In other words - does this mean the defect is only zero optical density, but no physical anomaly otherwise?



Oh! Would you mind including a link? I could look for it, but you've got it handy. It'll be relevant for other people who may stumble across this thread later on.

I should say I didn't "see" any defects on the unexposed film. So just a visual inspection. Now that I look at some of the negatives more closely, think I see some of those dots around sprocket holes outside the frame of the negative.

The other thread entitled :

How to get rid of spots on the negatives?​

I posted on it, so it's 5-6 places down on the normal threads of this subform. It's from April, 2018; not sure how to link it. Looks to be a similar problem, same film, though OP there thought it was developer specific.

 

[Don_ih]

That is mold. I have developed lots of moldy film. The last stuff was on rolls that I got from a guy - he'd bulk rolled them then put them in the door of his freezer (in the fridge). Every roll got moldy. Mold eats the emulsion - it likes the gelatin. I had mold that looked like that on tmax 100 that was in a bulk loader someone kept in a fridge. Things can go moldy in a fridge.

It's visible on undeveloped film. Look for areas that are discoloured.

 

[koraks]

How to get rid of spots on the negatives?

Thanks, got it - it's this one: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-to-get-rid-of-spots-on-the-negatives.159211/

 

[Don_ih]

Here's a magical moldy example: moldy tmax 100: