Help needed to identify a 9x12 plate camera

[alex ph]

Hello,

I recently acquired a nice looking plate 9x12 folder equipped with a Schneider Kreuznach Xenar 4.5/135 on Compur shutter going up to 1/200. The lens' serial number is 272### what, following to this page, refers to 1928 or 1929. The shutter is a bit lazy so need to be cleaned before putting the camera to test.



As far as I understand, the lens is not the fastest and the highest in rank of its time. Still, several options in the camera construction refer rather to high end. Such as rulers for vertical and horisontal lens shift and a possibility to double extend the bellows for close-up shots (that way it focuses at around 20 cm).



What intrigues me, taking all that into account, the camera is literally a no name one. Aside the shutter-lens block clearly marked, the body has no sign of brand or fabric. It looks quite a lot as Voigtlanders or Nagels of the same era. But some elements differ, such as the catches that fix the lens and bellows inside the box when unfolded. They are not screw but clip ones.



There are some other minor differences in construction. Aside from that, why a brand manufacturer schould have hidden its name from the camera body? In ebay ended listings I found several similar plate folders with Schneider Kreuznach Xenar 4.5 and no brand indication. Do you have an idea of the manufacturer and of the reason why the brand or any other body markings are absent?

 

[TheToadMen]

Could be a Welta, or .... something like this: http://forum.mflenses.com/welta-9x12-with-trioplan-15cm-f3-5-t19097.html
or this: http://www.kameramuseum.de/0-fotokameras/grossbild/welta-9x12-logo/einfach.html

It looks like you're missing the name tag on the side of the camera. See the red circle:



Here is an example of the Welta name tag: http://www.kameramuseum.de/0-fotokameras/grossbild/welta-9x12-logo/logo.html

Any Welta specialists on APUG??

 

[ntenny]

Those oversized levers for moving the standard look very distinctive. I don't know Weltas very well but they sure look similar to the ones on the examples Bert showed above.

I've run into a few plate cameras that seem to have been built as "house brand" products for retailers like Photo Porst, where the actual maker left their name off. I suppose this could be a Welta camera built for rebranding, with the retailer's name tag lost to the ravages of time.

-NT

 

[alex ph]

Thank you, (there was a url link here which no longer exists), for the links! Mine is really similar to Welta. But there is no brand name at all. Neither the spot you point out (what an attention!) was intended to be. It is the button that opens the camera. As ntenny supposes, it might be an intentionally de-branded camera. But what is strange, as already mentioned, I found several others is ended ebay auctions with the same Schneider lens which are all no-name, such as that one. Was it a massive sale from the stock of cameras prepared to be rebranded, in the end of 1920s?

 

[gone]

A Xenar is a very sharp lens capable of making excellent photographs if it's clean. Whoever made it, it's a beautiful camera. Wish it were mine. It certainly could be a Welta, just as it could be one of half a dozen brands from the same period. Here's one that's similar to yours. Odd that there's no name on the carrying strap, as often that's a clue.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Wel...407?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item2c7decab6f

 

[alex ph]

Thank you, momus, you give me another guess. So the bodies could be manufactured by one big enterprise already in that era, then assembled with different shutter-lens combinations by brand companies. But I still have no idea the way several cameras proposed recently with Xenar kept those pre-sale no name bodies.

As for your wish, peek German ebay during a month, with keywords like "Xenar Plattenkamera". You will almost certainly find one cheaper than that of your link.

 

[alex ph]

Some new detail. I forgot that a nice release cable came with the camera, with a dedicated screw fix for "T" speed. Here it is.



And this is the other camera element, aside the shutter-lens assembly, which keeps an explicit manufacturer marking.



It says AGC, for "Alfred Gauthier Calmbach", the manufacturer of Pronto shutters. But that is not the great news, as far as a good part of all cables you can find keep that marking. It was just another side manufacturer of the era who participated in productions of camera equipment. Making a search associated with that name, I found a post where the author explicitly states: "One of the interesting things that I learnt about many of these vintage folding cameras was that the body itself often wasn't branded. They were promoted by the retailers who sold them..."

So, it's one more opinion in favour of the guess pointing to an anonimous manufacturer of the camera body who could provide with its parts Welta, Agfa and other brand firms. Quite an amazing illustration for capitalist division of labor in early XX century.

 

[Ian Grant]

I don't think it's a Welta, you need to check the details like how the carrying handle attaches, the shape of the struts. Not many manufacturers used Schneider lenses around 1928/9 they were then one of the smaller manufacturers, they seem to have grown in size when Nagel split from Zeiss Ikon.

There were a large number of companies making very similar cameras and many were re-badged for larger photo stores etc so identification can be quite difficult where there's no markings.

Ian

 

[Robburrito]

That body looks very similar to my Agfa Isolar 9x12 - there are some minor differences but overall very close.

 

[Ian Grant]

I had a look through the BJP Almanacs this morning from 1928 & 29 and it's not anything from the major manufacturers, Agfa, Zeiss Ikon (and predecessors), Nagel, Voightlander etc. There were so many small camera manufacturers, mainly in Germany but a few in the UK, France, and other European cameras, many of these were short lived.

The problem is that some parts are common between a few cameras and despite at first glance cameras appear to be similar once you check the finer details you begin to appreciate how many variations there can be with these 9x12 (and similar) cameras. There's at least 30 possible manufacturers.

I've a list of 9x12 cameras and lenses that I've come across and it doesn't match any I've seen with a Xenar or other Schneider lens.

Ian

 

[alex ph]

Thank you, Ian, for your investigation! Up to the hour the body's manufacturer remains a mistery.

 

[Ian Grant]

Thank you, Ian, for your investigation! Up to the hour the body's manufacturer remains a mistery.

No problem, I'm frequently scouring publications and online sources to identify pre-WWII cameras. I bought a box full of cameras and parts a couple of months ago with an unknown 9x12 camera, it's not typical as it has natural bellows and is possibly a Tropical camera, but at some point was leatherette covered, I only bought the box for a very moldy looking half plate wood/brass camera the seller wouldn't slit the items

Ian